Full Text Campaign Buzz 2016 January 17, 2016: NBC News/YouTube Fourth Democratic Debate in Charleston, SC Transcript

ELECTION 2016

CampaignBuzz2016

CAMPAIGN BUZZ 2016

Full Text of the Fourth Democratic Debate in Charleston

Source: Time, 1-17-16

Fourth Democratic debate in Charleston, South Carolina, Sunday night.

Participants: Former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders and former Maryland Gov. Martin O’Malley

Hosted by NBC News and YouTube

Moderated by anchor Lester Holt.

LESTER HOLT: Good evening and welcome to the NBC News/YouTube Democratic candidates debate. After all the campaigning soon Americans will have their say with the first votes of the 2016 campaign just 15 days away in Iowa. And New Hampshire, not far behind. Tonight will be the final opportunity to see these candidates face to face before the voting begins. Our purpose here tonight is to highlight and examine the differences among the three Democratic candidates. So let’s get started. Please welcome Secretary Hillary Clinton, Senator Bernie Sanders, and Governor Martin O’Malley. Lester Holt: Well welcome to all of you, hope you’re excited, we’re excited. We want to thank our host, the Congressional Black Caucus Institute. I’m joined by my colleague, Andrea Mitchell tonight. The rules are simple. 60 seconds for answers, 30 seconds for follow-ups or rebuttals. I know you’ll all keep exactly the time so our job should be pretty easy here tonight. We’ll also have questions from the YouTube community throughout the debate. This is a critical point in the race. You’ve been defining your differences with each other especially vigorously in the last week on the campaign trail. We’re here to facilitate this conversation on behalf of the voters so that they know exactly where you stand as you face off tonight. Let’s have a great debate. We’ll begin with 45 second opening statements from each candidate starting with Secretary Clinton.

 

HILLARY CLINTON: Well good evening. And I want to thank the Congressional Black Caucus institute and the people of Charleston for hosting us here on the eve of Martin Luther King Day tomorrow. You know, I remember well when my youth minister took me to hear Dr. King. I was a teenager and his moral clarity the message that he conveyed that evening really stayed with me and helped to set me on a path to service. I also remember that he spent the last day of his life in Memphis fighting for dignity and higher pay for working people, and that is our fight still. We have to get the economy working and incomes rising for everyone including those who have been left out and left behind. We have to keep our communities and our country safe. We need a president who can do all aspects of the job. I understand that this is the hardest job in the world. I’m prepared and ready to take it on, and I hope to earn your support to be the nominee of the Democratic Party, and the next president of the United States.

 

HOLT: Thank you. Senator Sanders, your opening statement sir.

 

BERNIE SANDERS: As we honor the extraordinary life of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., it’s important not only that we remember what he stood for, but that we pledge to continue his vision to transform our country. And as we look out at our country today, what the American people understand is we have an economy that’s rigged. That ordinary Americans are working longer hours for lower wages, 47 million people living in poverty, and almost all of the income and wealth going to the top one percent. And then, to make a bad situation worse, we have a corrupt campaign finance system where millionaires and billionaires are spending extraordinary amounts of money to buy elections. This campaign is about a political revolution to not only elect the president, but to transform this country.

 

HOLT: Senator, thank you. And Governor O’Malley, your opening statement tonight.

 

MARTIN O’MALLEY: Thank you. My name is Martin O’Malley and I was born the year Dr. King delivered his “I Have a Dream” speech. And I want to thank the people of South Carolina not only for hosting our debate here tonight, but also for what you taught all of us in the aftermath of the tragic shooting at Mother Emmanuel Church. You taught us in fact, in keeping with Dr. King’s teaching, that love would have the final word when you took down the Confederate flag from your state house, let go of the past, and move forward. Eight years ago you brought forward a new leader in Barack Obama to save our country from the second Great Depression, and that’s what he’s done. Our country is doing better, we’re creating jobs again. But in order to make good on the promise of equal opportunity and equal justice under the law we have urgent work to do and the voices of anger and fear and division that we’ve heard coming off the Republican presidential podiums are pretty loud. We need new leadership. We need to come together as a people and build on the good things that President Obama has done. That’s why I’m running for president. I need your help, I ask for your vote, and I look forward to moving our country forward once again. Thank you.

 

HOLT: Governor, thank you. Alright to our first question now. The first question I’ll be addressing to all the candidates. President Obama came to office determined to swing for the fences on health care reform. Voters want to know how you would define your presidency, how you would think big. So complete this sentence: In my first 100 days in office, my top three priorities will be: fill in the blank. Senator Sanders.

 

SANDERS: Well, that’s what our campaign is about. It is thinking big. It is understanding that in the wealthiest country in the history of the world, we should have health care for every man, woman, and child as a right. That we should raise the minimum wage to at least 15 dollars an hour, that we have got to create millions of decent paying jobs by rebuilding our crumbling infrastructure. So what my first days are about is bringing American together to end the decline of the middle class, to tell the wealthiest people in this country that yes they are gonna start paying their fair share of taxes, and that we are going to have a government that works for all of us and not just big campaign contributors.

 

HOLT: Secretary Clinton, same question. My first 100 days in office, my top 3 priorities will be:

 

CLINTON: I would work quickly to present to the congress my plans for creating more good jobs and manufacturing infrastructure, clean and renewable energy, raising the minimum wage, and guaranteeing finally equal pay for women’s work. I would also, I would also be presenting my plans to build on the Affordable Care Act and to improve it by decreasing the out of pocket costs by putting a cap on prescription drug costs, by looking for ways that we can put the prescription drug business and the health insurance company business on a more stable platform that doesn’t take too much money out of the pockets of hard working Americans. And third, I would be working in every way that I knew to bring our country together. We do have too much division, too much mean spiritedness. There’s a lot we have to do on immigration reform, on voting rights, on campaign finance reform, but we need to do it together. That’s how we’ll have the kind of country for the 21st century that we know will guarantee our children and grandchildren the kind of future they deserve.

 

LESTER HOLT:

09:08:55:00 Governor O’Malley, same question.

MARTIN O’MALLEY:

09:08:58:00 Thank you. First of all, I would lay out an agenda to make wages go up again for all Americans rather than down. Equal pay for equal work. Making it easier rather than harder for people to join labor unions and bargain collectively for better wages. Getting 11 million of our neighbors out of the underground shadow economy by passing comprehensive immigration reform. Raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour however we can, wherever we can.

 

09:09:23:00 Secondly, I believe the greatest business opportunity to come to the United States of America in 100 years is climate change. And I put forward a plan to move us to a 100% clean electric energy grid by 2050 and create five million jobs along the way. (CHEERING) Thank you.

LESTER HOLT:

09:09:42:00 So you’ve all–

MARTIN O’MALLEY:

09:09:43:00 I’m sorry, that was second, Lester. And third and finally, we need a new agenda for America’s cities. We have not had a new agenda for America’s cities since Jimmy Carter. (APPLAUSE) We need a new agenda for America’s cities that will invest in the talents and the skills of our people, that will invest in CBBG, transportation, infrastructure and transit options and make our cities the leading edge in this move to a redesigned built, clean, green energy future that will employ our people.

LESTER HOLT:

09:10:08:00 All right. Governor, thank you. (APPLAUSE) You’ve all laid out large visions and we’re gonna cover a lot of the ground you talked about as we continue in the evening. The last couple of weeks of this campaign have featured some of the sharpest exchanges in the race. Let’s start with one of ’em, the issue of guns. Senator Sanders, last week Secretary Clinton called you, quote, a pretty reliable vote for the gun lobby. Right before the debate you change your position on immunity from lawsuits for gun manufacturers. Can you tell us why?

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:10:36:00 Well, I think Secretary Clinton knows that what she says is very disingenuous. I have a D minus voting record from the N.R.A. I was in 1988– there were three candidates running for Congress in the state of Vermont. I stood up to the gun lobby and came out and maintained the position that in this country we should not be selling military style assault weapons.

 

09:11:01:00 I have supported from day one an instant background check to make certain that people who should not have guns do not have guns. And that includes people with criminal backgrounds, people who are mentally unstable. I support what President Obama is doing in terms of trying to close the gun show loopholes.

 

09:11:23:00 And I think it should be a federal crime if people act (UNINTEL). We have seen in this city a horrendous tragedy of a crazed person praying with people and then coming out and shooting nine people. This should not be a political issue. What we should be doing is working together. And, by the way, as a senator from a rural state that has virtually no gun control I believe that I am in an excellent position to bring people together to–

LESTER HOLT:

09:11:53:00 Senator–

09:11:53:00 (OVERTALK)

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:11:54:00 –provide a sensible–

09:11:56:00 (OVERTALK)

LESTER HOLT:

09:11:57:00 –you didn’t answer the question that you did change your (CHEERING) position on immunity for gun manufacturers–

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:12:00:00 What I–

LESTER HOLT:

09:12:01:00 –so can you– can you answer the–

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:12:01:00 –what I have said–

09:12:03:00 (OVERTALK)

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:12:04:00 –is that the m– gun manufacturers liability bill had some good provisions. Among other things we prohibited ammunition that would have killed cops who had protection on. We had child safety protection– on guns in that legislation. And what we also said is a small mom and pop gun shop who sells a gun legally to somebody should not be held libel if somebody does s– something terrible with that gun.

LESTER HOLT:

09:12:35:00 So.

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:12:36:00 What I would say is that I would relook at it. We are gonna relook at it. And I will support stronger (?) provisions.

LESTER HOLT:

09:12:41:00 Secretary Clinton, would you like to respond to Senator Sanders?

HILLARY CLINTON:

09:12:43:00 Yes. Look, I– I have made it clear based on Senator Sanders’ own record that he– has voted with the N.R.A., with the gun lobby numerous times. He voted against the Brady bill five times. He voted for what we call the Charleston loophole.

 

09:13:02:00 He voted for immunity from gun makers and sellers which the N.R.A. said was the most important piece of gun legislation in 20 years. He voted to let guns go onto Amtrak, guns go into national parks. He voted against doing research to figure out how we can save lives.

 

09:13:22:00 Let’s not forget what this is about. Ninety people a day die from gun violence in our country. That’s 33,000 people a year. One of the most horrific examples, not a block from here, where we had nine people murdered. Now I am pleased to hear that Senator Sanders has reversed his position on immunity.

 

09:13:48:00 And I look forward to him joining with those members of Congress who have already introduced legislation. There is no other industry in America that was given the total pass that the gun makers and dealers–

LESTER HOLT:

09:14:02:00 And that– and that’s the–

HILLARY CLINTON:

09:14:01:00 –were. And that needs to be reversed.

LESTER HOLT:

09:14:04:00 –all right. Governor O’Malley, (APPLAUSE) you signed tough gun control measures as governor or Maryland. And there are a lot of Democrats in the audience here in South Carolina who own guns. This conversation might be worrying many of them. They may be hearing, “You wanna take my guns.” What would you say to them?

MARTIN O’MALLEY:

09:14:20:00 This is what I would say, Lester, look, the– I’ve listened to Secretary Clinton and Senator Sanders go back and forth on which of them has the most inconsistent record on gun safety legislation. And– (APPLAUSE) and I would have to agree with both of them.

 

09:14:34:00 They’ve both been inconsistent when it comes (LAUGHTER) to this issue. I’m the– I’m the one candidate on this stage that actually brought people together to pass comprehensive gun safety legislation. This is very personal to me being from Baltimore. I will never forget one occasion visiting– little boy in Johns Hopkins hospital. He was gettin’ a birthday haircut at the age of three when drug dealers turned that barber shop into a shooting gallery.

 

09:14:58:00 And that boy’s head was pierced with a bullet. And I remember visiting him. It did not kill him. I remember visiting him and his mother in Johns Hopkins Hospital. And his diapers with tubes running in and out of his head, same age as my little boy.

 

09:15:11:00 So after the slaughter of the kids in Connecticut, Lester, we brought people together. We did pass in our state comprehensive gun safety legislation. It did have a ban on combat assault weapons, (APPLAUSE) universal background checks. And you know what, we did not interrupt a single person’s hunting season. I’ve never met a self-respecting deer hunter that needed an AR15 to down a deer. And so (CHEERING) we’re able to actually do these (UNINTEL).

LESTER HOLT:

09:15:34:00 All right, governor, thank you. Secretary Clinton, this is a community that has suffered a lot of heartache in the last year. Of course as you mentioned, the– the church shootings. We won’t forget the video of Walter Scott being shot in the back while running from police. We understand that a jury will decide whether that police officer was justified. But it played straight to the fears of many African-American men that their lives are cheap. Is that perception or in your view is it reality?

HILLARY CLINTON:

09:16:04:00 Well, sadly it’s reality. And it has been heartbreaking and incredibly outraging to see the constant stories of young men like Walter Scott, as you said, who have been killed– by police officers. There needs to be a concerted effort to address the systemic racism in our criminal justice system.

 

09:16:35:00 And that requires a very (CHEERING) clear agenda for retraining police officers, looking at ways to end racial profiling, finding more ways to really bring the disparities that stalk our country into high relief. One out of three African-American men may well end up going to prison.

 

09:17:02:00 That’s the statistic. I want people here to think what we would be doing if it was one out of three white men. And very often the black (CHEERING) men are arrested, convicted and incarcerated for offenses that do not lead to the same results for white men. So we have a very serious problem that we can no longer ignore.

LESTER HOLT:

09:17:23:00 And your time is up. I– Senator Sanders, my next question is–

09:17:27:00 (OVERTALK)

LESTER HOLT:

09:17:27:00 –actually my next question–

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:17:26:00 Let– let me–

LESTER HOLT:

09:17:28:00 –was for you.

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:17:27:00 –respond to what the secretary said. We have a criminal justice system which is broken. Who in America is satisfied that we have more people in jail than any other country on Earth including China, disproportionately African-American and Latino?

 

09:17:45:00 Who is satisfied (APPLAUSE) that 51% of African-American young people are either unemployed or underemployed? Who is satisfied that millions of people have police records for possessing marijuana when the CEOs of Wall Street companies who destroyed our (CHEERING) country have no police records?

LESTER HOLT:

09:18:09:00 Senator– Senator Sanders–

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:18:10:00 We need to take– we need to take a very hard look–

09:18:17:00 (OVERTALK)

LESTER HOLT:

09:18:16:00 Sen– Senator Sanders–

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:18:18:00 –at our criminal justice system, investing in jobs and education–

09:18:20:00 (OVERTALK)

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:18:22:00 –not in jail and–

LESTER HOLT:

09:18:23:00 Just over a week–

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:18:22:00 –incarceration.

LESTER HOLT:

09:18:25:00 –just over a week ago the chairman of the Congressional Black Caucus endorsed Secretary Clinton, not you. He said that choosing her over you was not a hard decision. In fact, our polling shows she’s beating you more than two to one among minority voters. How could you be the nominee if you don’t have that support?

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:18:39:00 Well, let me talk about polling. The secretary– (LAUGHTER) as Sectary Clinton well knows when this campaign began she was 50 points ahead of me. We were all up 3% points. Guess what? In Iowa, New Hampshire the race is very, very close. Maybe we’re ahead (CHEERING) (UNINTEL). In terms of polling, guess what? We are running ahead of Secretary Clinton in terms of taking on my good friend, Donald Trump, beating her by 19 points in New Hampshire, 13 points in the last national poll that I saw.

 

09:19:18:00 To answer your question, when the African-American community becomes familiar with my Congressional record and with our agenda and with our views on the economy and criminal justice just as the general population has become more supportive so will the African-American community, so will the Latino community. We have the momentum. We’re on a path to a victory.

LESTER HOLT:

09:19:43:00 Let’s gonna–

09:19:43:00 (OVERTALK)

LESTER HOLT:

09:19:44:00 –governor I’m gonna come to you (CHEERING) in a second. But Google searches for the words Black Lives Matter surpass Civil Rights Movement last year. And here in South Carolina Black Lives Matter was the number one trending political issue. Governor O’Malley, your campaign and your record is Governor of Maryland and before that the Mayor of Baltimore.

 

09:19:59:00 Last year of course Baltimore was rocked by violent unrest in the wake of the death of Freddie Gray. And right from the start of your campaign you’ve been dogged by those who blame your tough on crime, so-called zero tolerance policies as mayor for contributing to that unrest. What responsibility do you bear?

MARTIN O’MALLEY:

09:20:18:00 Well, let’s talk about this, when I ran for mayor in 1999, Lester, it was not because our city was doing well. It was because we were burying over 300 young, poor black men every single year. And that’s why I ran because, yes, black lives matter.

 

09:20:34:00 And we did a number of things. We weren’t able to make our city immune from setbacks as the Freddie Gray– unrest and– and tragic death showed. But we were able to save a lot of lives doing things that actually worked to improve police and community relations.

 

09:20:49:00 The truth of the matter is we create a civilian review board. And all– many of these things are in the new agenda for criminal justice reform that I’ve put forward. We created a– civilian review board, gave them their own detectives. We required the reporting of discourtesy– use of excessive for– force, lethal force. I repealed– the possession of marijuana as a– as a crime in our state. I drove our incarceration rate down to 20-year lows and drove violent crime down to 30-year lows and became the first governor south of the Mason Dixon line to repeal the death penalty. I feel a responsibility every day to find things (APPLAUSE) that work.

LESTER HOLT:

09:21:25:00 All right.

09:21:26:00 (OVERTALK)

MARTIN O’MALLEY:

09:21:26:00 And do more (UNINTEL) criminal justice system.

LESTER HOLT:

09:21:26:00 Let’s talk more– let’s– let’s talk more about policing and the criminal justice system. Senator Sanders, a few times tonight we’re gonna hear from some of the most prominent voices on YouTube starting with Franchesca Ramsey who tackles racial stereotypes through her videos. Let’s watch.

FRANCHESCA RAMSEY (ON VIDEO):

09:21:40:00 Hey, I’m Franchesca Ramsey. I believe there’s a huge conflict of interest when local prosecutors investigate cases of police violence within their own communities. For example, last month the officers involved in the case of 12-year-old Tamir Rice weren’t indicted. How would your presidency ensure that incidents of police violence are investigated and prosecuted fairly?

LESTER HOLT:

09:22:01:00 Senator Sanders?

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:22:02:00 Apologize for not hearing– all of that– question.

LESTER HOLT:

09:22:06:00 Would you like me to read it back to you?

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:22:06:00 Yeah.

LESTER HOLT:

09:22:07:00 Prosecutors– I believe there’s a huge conflict of interest when local prosecutors investigate cases of police violence within their communities. Most recently we saw this with the non-indictment of the officers involved in the case of 12-year-old Tamir Rice.

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:22:23:00 Right.

LESTER HOLT:

09:22:24:00 How would your presidency–

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:22:24:00 So.

LESTER HOLT:

09:22:25:00 –ensure incidents of police violence are investigated and prosecuted fairly?

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:22:29:00 Absolutely. This is a responsibility for the U.S. justice department to get involved. Whenever anybody in this country is killed while in police customer they should automatically trigger a U.S. attorney general’s investigation. (CHEERING) Second of all, and I think as a mayor who worked very closely and well with police officers, the vast majority of ’em are honest, hardworking people trying to do a difficult job.

 

09:23:00:00 But let us be clear, if a police officer breaks the law, like any public official, that officer must be held accountable. (CHEERING) And thirdly, we have got to demilitarize our police departments so they don’t look like occupying armies. We’ve gotta move to a community police– police (UNINTEL). And fourthly we have got to make our police departments look like the communities they serve in their (CHEERING) diversity.

LESTER HOLT:

09:23:30:00 Secretary Clinton, this question is for you. Tonight parts of America are in the grip of a deadly heroin epidemic spanning race and class, hitting small towns and cities alike. It’s become a major issue in this race in a lotta places where you’ve been campaigning. Despite an estimated $1 trillion spent, many say the war on drugs has failed. So what would you do?

HILLARY CLINTON:

09:23:52:00 Well, Lester, you’re right. Everywhere I go to campaign I’m meeting families who are affected by– the drug problem that mostly is opioids and heroin now. And lives are being lost and children are being orphaned. And I’ve met a lot of grandparents who are now taking care of grandchildren.

 

09:24:12:00 So I have tried to come out with a comprehensive approach that number one does tell the states we will work with you from the federal government putting more money, about $1 billion a year, to help states have a different approach to dealing with this epidemic.

 

09:24:29:00 The policing needs to change. Police officers must be equipped with the antidote to a heroin overdose or an opioid overdose known as Narcan. They should be able to administer it, so should fire-fighters and others. We have to move away from treating the use of drugs as a crime and instead move it to where it belongs, as a health issue. And we need to divert more people from the criminal justice system into drug courts, into treatment and recovery.

LESTER HOLT:

09:25:01:00 And that’s time.

HILLARY CLINTON:

09:25:03:00 So this is the kind of approach that we should take in dealing with what is now–

LESTER HOLT:

09:25:06:00 Senator– Senator–

HILLARY CLINTON:

09:25:07:00 –a growing epidemic.

LESTER HOLT:

09:25:09:00 –Sanders, would you like to respond?

MARTIN O’MALLEY:

09:25:09:00 You know, (APPLAUSE) I agree– I agree with everything– the secretary– said. But let me just add this, there is a responsibility on the part of the pharmaceutical industry and the drug companies who are producing all of these drugs and not (APPLAUSE) looking at the consequence of it.

 

09:25:27:00 And second of all when we talk about addiction being the disease the secretary is right. What that means is we need a revolution in this country in terms of mental health treatment. People should be able to get the treatment that they need when they need it, not two months from now which is why I believe in universal health–

LESTER HOLT:

09:25:50:00 And that’s–

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:25:50:00 –care with a special–

09:25:50:00 (OVERTALK)

LESTER HOLT:

09:25:51:00 –and that’s– I will be getting to all that coming up but we’re gonna–

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:25:53:00 –Lester, just ten seconds.

LESTER HOLT:

09:25:54:00 –take a break. We need to take–

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:25:55:00 Just ten seconds.

LESTER HOLT:

09:25:55:00 –a break. And when we come back–

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:25:56:00 All of the thing–

LESTER HOLT:

09:25:58:00 –anger brewing in America.

09:26:10:00 (MUSIC)

09:26:17:00 (BREAK IN TAPE)

09:30:04:00 (MUSIC)

LESTER HOLT:

09:30:08:00 Welcome back to (UNINTEL) turned into another area where there’s been fierce disagreement, that would be health care. Senator Sanders and Secretary Clinton, you both mentioned it in your 100 day priorities. Let’s turn to my colleague, Andrea Mitchell, now to lead that questioning.

ANDREA MITCHELL:

09:30:22:00 Thank you, Lester. Secretary Clinton, Senator Sanders favors what he calls Medicare for all. Now you’ve said that what he is proposing would tear up Obamacare and replace it. Secretary Clinton, is it really fair to say that Bernie Sanders wants to kill Obamacare?

HILLARY CLINTON:

09:30:39:00 Well, Andrea, I am absolutely committed to universal health care. I’ve worked on this for a long time. People may remember that– I took on the health insurance– industry back in the ’90s. And I didn’t quit until we got the children’s health insurance program that insures eight million kids.

 

09:30:57:00 And I certainly respect Senator Sanders’ intentions. But when you’re talking about health care the details really mattel– matter. And therefore we have been raising questions about the nine bills that he introduced over 20 years– as to how they would work and what would be the impact on people’s health care. He didn’t like that. His campaign– didn’t like it either. And tonight he’s come out with a new health care plan. And again we need to get into the details. But here’s what I believe. The Democratic party in the United States worked since Harry Truman to get the Affordable Care Act passed. We finally have a path to universal health care.

 

09:31:37:00 We’ve accomplished so much already. I do not want to see the Republicans repeal it. And I don’t wanna see us start over again with a contentious debate. I want us to defend (APPLAUSE) and build on the Affordable Care Act and improve it.

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:31:54:00 Okay.

ANDREA MITCHELL:

09:31:55:00 Senator Sanders?

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:31:57:00 Secretary– Secretary Clinton didn’t answer your question. (LAUGHTER) Because what her campaign was saying Bernie Sanders who has fought for universal health care for my entire life– he wants to end Medicare, end Medicaid, end the children’s health insurance program.

 

09:32:15:00 That is nonsense. What a Medicare for all program does is finally provide in this country health care for every man, woman and child as a right. Now the truth is that (APPLAUSE) Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Harry Truman, you know what they believed in? They believed that health care should be available to all of our people. I’m on the committee that wrote the Affordable Care Act. I made the Affordable Care Act along with Jim Clyburn a better pr– piece of legislation. I voted for it.

 

09:32:46:00 But right now what we have to deal with is the fact that 29 million people still have no health insurance. We are paying the highest prices in the world for prescription drugs, getting ripped off. And here’s the important point, we are spending far more per person on health care than the people of any other country. My proposal, provide health care to all people, get private insurance out of health insurance, lower the cost of health care for middle class families by 5,000 bucks. That’s the vision we need to take.

HILLARY CLINTON:

09:33:19:00 Well, Senator Sanders–

09:33:20:00 (OVERTALK)

HILLARY CLINTON:

09:33:20:00 –if I can– (CHEERING) you know, I– I– I have to say I’m not sure whether we’re talking about the plan you just introduced tonight or we’re talking about the plan you introduced nine times in the Congress. But the fact is (APPLAUSE) we have the Affordable Care Act.

 

09:33:36:00 That is one of the greatest accomplishments of President Obama, of the Democratic party (CHEERING) and of our country. And we have already seen 19 million Americans get insurance. We have seen the end of pre-existing conditions keeping people from getting insurance. We have seen women no longer paying more for our insurance than men. And we have seen young people up to the age of 26 being able to stay on their parents’ policy.

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:34:05:00 Well, that’s–

09:34:06:00 (OVERTALK)

HILLARY CLINTON:

09:34:04:00 Now there are things we can do to improve it. But to tear it up and start over again, pushing our country back into that kind of a contentious debate I think is the wrong direction.

09:34:18:00 (OVERTALK)

MARTIN O’MALLEY:

09:34:19:00 I have to talk about something that’s absolutely–

09:34:20:00 (OVERTALK)

MARTIN O’MALLEY:

09:34:21:00 I have–

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:34:20:00 No one’s tearing this up. We’re gonna go forward. But what the secretary neglected to mention, not just the 29 million still have no health insurance, that even more are under insured with huge copayments and deductibles. Tell me why we are spending over three times more than the British who guarantee health care to all of their people? 50% more than the French, more than the Canadians.

 

09:34:44:00 The vision from FDR and Harry Truman was health care for all people as a right in a cost-effective way. We’re not gonna tear up the Affordable Care Act. I helped write it. But we are going to move on top of that to a Medicare–

09:35:01:00 (OVERTALK)

MARTIN O’MALLEY:

09:35:00:00 Andrea–

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:35:00:00 –for all.

MARTIN O’MALLEY:

09:35:01:00 –Andrea– Andrea–

09:35:02:00 (OVERTALK)

MARTIN O’MALLEY:

09:35:02:00 –instead of– (CHEERING) Andrea, I think instead of attacking one another on health care we should be talking about the things that are actually working. In our state we have moved to an all-payer system. With the Affordable Care Act we now have moved all of our acute care hospitals that driver of cost at the center away from fee for service and actually to pay we pay them based on how well they keep patients out of the hospital. How well they keep their patients. That’s the future. We need to build on the Affordable Care Act, do the things that work and reduce costs and increase access.

09:35:36:00 (OVERTALK)

HILLARY CLINTON:

09:35:36:00 And that’s exactly what we are able to do based on the foundation of the Affordable Care Act. What Governor O’Malley just said is one of the models that we will be looking at to make sure we do get costs down. We do limit a lot of the unnecessary cost that we still have in the system.

 

09:35:56:00 But with all due respect, to start over again with a whole new debate is something that I think would set us back. The Republicans just voted last week to repeal the Affordable Care Act and thank goodness President Obama vetoed it and saved Obamacare (CHEERING) for the American people.

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:36:17:00 You know–

ANDREA MITCHELL:

09:36:18:00 Senator Sanders let me ask you this though–

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:36:20:00 –yeah.

LESTER HOLT:

09:36:20:00 –you talked about Medicare for all. And tonight you’ve released a very detailed plan–

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:36:24:00 Not all that detailed–

ANDREA MITCHELL:

09:36:25:00 –just two–

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:36:25:00 –just–

ANDREA MITCHELL:

09:36:27:00 –hours before the debate. You did.

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:36:28:00 –well–

ANDREA MITCHELL:

09:36:29:00 But let me ask you about Vermont because Vermont– you tried in the state of Vermont. And Vermont walked away from this kind of idea of– of Medicare for all, single payer, because they concluded it require major tax increases–

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:36:40:00 –well, that– you– you might want–

09:36:41:00 (OVERTALK)

ANDREA MITCHELL:

09:36:42:00 –and by some estimates it would double the budget. If you couldn’t–

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:36:44:00 –Andrea, let me just say this–

ANDREA MITCHELL:

09:36:44:00 –sell it in Vermont, Senator–

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:36:46:00 –let me just say that you might–

ANDREA MITCHELL:

09:36:47:00 –how can you sell it to the country?

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:36:48:00 –ask the governor of the state of Vermont why he could not do it. I’m not the governor. I’m the senator from the state of Vermont. But second of all– (APPLAUSE) second of all here is what the real point is. In terms of all of the issues you’ve raised, the good questions you’ve raised, you know what it all comes down to? Do you know why we can’t do what every other country– major country on earth is doing? It’s because we have a campaign finance system that is corrupt.

 

09:37:15:00 We have super packs. We have the pharmaceutical industry pouring hundreds of millions of dollars into campaign contributions and lobbying and the private (NOISE) insurance companies as well. What this is really about is not the rational way to go forward. It’s Medicare for all. It is whether we have the guts to stand up to the private insurance companies and all of their money and the pharmaceutical industry. That’s what this debate should be about. (CHEERING)

HILLARY CLINTON:

09:37:42:00 Well, a– as someone who– as someone who has a– a little bit of experience standing up to the health insurance industry that (CHEERING) spent, you know, many, many millions of dollars attacking me and probably will so again because of what I believe we can do, building on the Affordable Care Act, I think it’s important to point out that there are a lot of reasons we have the health care system we have today.

 

09:38:09:00 I know how much money influences the political decision making. That’s why I’m for huge campaign finance reform. However, we started a system that had private health insurance. And even during the Affordable Care Act debate there was an opportunity to vote for what was called the public option.

 

09:38:27:00 In other words, people could buy into Medicare. And even when the Democrats were in care of the Congress we couldn’t get the votes for that. So what I’m saying is really simple, this has been the fight of the Democratic party for decades. We have the Affordable Care Act. Let’s make it work. Let’s take the models that states are doing. We now have driven costs down to the lowest they’ve been in 50 years. Now we’ve gotta get individual costs down. That’s what I’m planning to do.

LESTER HOLT:

09:38:59:00 And that’s time. We’re gonna take a turn now. Secretary Clinton, in his final State of the Union address President Obama said his biggest– regret was his inability to bring the country together. If President Obama couldn’t do it, how will you?

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:39:11:00 Great question.

HILLARY CLINTON:

09:39:12:00 Well, I think it’s an important– point the president made in his State of the Union. And here’s what I would say. I will go anywhere to meet with anyone at any time to find common ground. That’s what I did as a first lady when I worked with both Democrats and Republicans to get the children’s health insurance program.

 

09:39:27:00 When I worked with (UNINTEL) one of the most– partisan of Republicans to reform the adoption and foster care system, what I did working in the Senate where I crossed the aisle often. Working even with the senator from South Carolina, Lindsey Graham, to get tri-care for national guardsmen and women. And it’s what I did as secretary of state on numerous compassions. And most particularly rounding up 2/3 votes in order to pass a treaty that lowered the nuclear weapons in both Russia and the United States. So I know it’s hard. But I also know you’ve gotta work at it every single day.

 

09:40:07:00 I look out here I see a lot of my friends from the Congress. And I know that they work at it every single day because maybe you can only find a little sliver of common ground to cooperate with somebody from the other party. But who knows? If you’re successful there maybe you can build even more–

LESTER HOLT:

09:40:24:00 And that’s time.

HILLARY CLINTON:

09:40:25:00 –that’s what I will do.

LESTER HOLT:

09:40:25:00 Senator Sanders response? (CHEERING)

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:40:32:00 A couple of years ago when we understood that veterans were not getting the quality care they needed in a timely manner I worked with folks like John McCain and others to pass the most comprehensive veterans’ health care legislation in modern history.

 

09:40:47:00 But let me rephrase your question because I think if– in all due respect, your question, in all due respect, (LAUGHTER) you’re missing the main point. And the main point in the Congress, it’s not that Republicans and Democrats hate each other. That’s a mythology from the media. The real issue is that Congress is owned by big money and refuses to do what the American people want them to do. (CHEERING) The real issue is that on– the real issue is that in area after area, raising the minimum wage to 15 bucks an hour, the American people want it. Rebuilding our crumbling infrastructure, creating le– 13 million jobs, the American people want it. Pay equity for women, the American people want it. Demanding that the wealthy start paying their fair share of taxes, the American people–

LESTER HOLT:

09:41:39:00 That’s–

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:41:40:00 –want it.

LESTER HOLT:

09:41:41:00 –that’s time. But let me–

09:41:41:00 (OVERTALK)

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:41:42:00 We have gotta make Congress respond to the needs of the people, not to–

09:41:47:00 (OVERTALK)

LESTER HOLT:

09:41:45:00 Senator Sanders, let me continue. You call yourself a (CHEERING) Democratic socialist.

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:41:51:00 I do.

LESTER HOLT:

09:41:51:00 And throughout your career in politics you’ve been (LAUGHTER) critical of the Democratic party. Even saying in a book you wrote, quote “There wasn’t a hell of a big difference between the two major parties.” How will you when a general–

09:42:00:00 (OVERTALK)

LESTER HOLT:

09:42:01:00 –how will you win a general election labeling yourself a Democratic socialist?

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:42:05:00 –because when I believe– what I was just saying. The Democratic party needs major reform. To those of you in South Carolina, you know what, in Mississippi, we need a 50 state strategy so that people (APPLAUSE) in South Carolina and Mississippi can get the resources that they need instead of being dependent on super packs. What we need is to be dependent on small, individual campaign contributors. We need an agenda that speaks to the needs of working families and low-income people, not wealthy campaign contributors.

MARTIN O’MALLEY:

09:42:42:00 Yeah, but senator, you can–

09:42:43:00 (OVERTALK)

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:42:44:00 –we need to expand– we need to expand what the input into the Democratic party. I am very proud that in this campaign we have seen an enormous amount of excitement from young people, from working people. We have received more individual contributions than any candidate in the history of this country up to this point. (CHEERING)

MARTIN O’MALLEY:

09:43:02:00 Yeah, but senator, you never came–

09:43:05:00 (OVERTALK)

MARTIN O’MALLEY:

09:43:06:00 –to campaign for Vincent Sheheen when he was running for governor. In fact, neither of you came to campaign for Vincent Sheheen when he was running for governor. We can talk all we want about wanting (CLAPPING) to build a stronger Democratic party.

 

09:43:14:00 But, Lester, the question you answered, there’s no laughing matter. The most recurring question I get when I stand on the chair all across (UNINTEL) and talk with my neighbors is, “How are you going to heal the divisions and the wounds in our country?”

 

09:43:29:00 This is the biggest challenge we face as a people. All my life I brought people together over– over deep divides and– and very old wounds. And that’s what we need now in a new leader. We cannot keep s– talking past each other, declaring all Republicans our enemies or the war is all about being against millionaires or billionaires or it’s all against American Muslims or all against immigrants. Look, it’s Frederick Douglas said, “We are one. Our cause is one. And we must help each other if we’re going to succeed–”

LESTER HOLT:

09:43:53:00 And that is– that is–

09:43:55:00 (OVERTALK)

MARTIN O’MALLEY:

09:43:56:00 –and that– (CHEERING)

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:43:56:00 And I respectfully disagree–

LESTER HOLT:

09:43:57:00 –Secretary Clinton, my next question is for you.

09:44:00:00 (OVERTALK)

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:43:59:00 I respectfully disagree with– with my c– my friend over here. And that is you are right. All of us have denounced Trump, attempt to divide this country, the anti-Latino rhetoric, the racist rhetoric, the anti-Muslim rhetoric. But where I disagree with you, Governor O’Malley is I do believe we have to deal with the fundamental issues of a handful of billionaires–

MARTIN O’MALLEY:

09:44:23:00 I agree with that.

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:44:25:00 –who control the economic and political life of this country.

MARTIN O’MALLEY:

09:44:27:00 I agree.

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:44:28:00 Nothing real will– get– happen unless we have a political revolution–

LESTER HOLT:

09:44:31:00 And– and–

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:44:32:00 –where millions of people–

LESTER HOLT:

09:44:33:00 –and we’re gonna–

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:44:33:00 –finally stand up.

LESTER HOLT:

09:44:36:00 –we’re gonna get into that coming up. But Secretary Clinton, (APPLAUSE) here’s another question from YouTube. It’s from a young video blogger who has over five million subscribers. He has a question about the importance of younger voters.

CONNOR FRANTA:

09:44:45:00 Hi, I’m Connor Franta. I’m 23 and my audience is around the same age. Getting my generation’s vote should be a priority for any presidential candidate. Now I know Senator Sanders is pretty popular among my peers. But what I wanna know is how are all of you planning on engaging us further in this election?

LESTER HOLT:

09:45:03:00 Secretary Clinton.

HILLARY CLINTON:

09:45:03:00 Well, thanks for the question. And– congratulations on five million viewers on YouTube. That’s quite an accomplishment. Look, this election is mostly about the future. And therefore it is of greatest urgency for young people.

 

09:45:21:00 I’ve laid out my ideas about what we can do to make college affordable, how we can help people pay off their student debts and save thousands of dollars, how we can create more good jobs. Because a lot of the young people that I talk with are pretty disappointed about the economic prospects they feel they’re facing. So making community college free, making it possible to attend a public college or university with debt-free tuition.

 

09:45:49:00 Looking for ways to protect our rights, especially from the concerted Republican assault on voting rights, on women’s rights, on gay rights, on civil rights, on workers’ rights. And I know how much young people value their independence, their autonomy and their rights. So I think this is an election where we have to pull young people and older people together to have a strategy about how we’re going to encourage even more Americans to vote. Because it is absolutely clear–

LESTER HOLT:

09:46:22:00 That– that–

HILLARY CLINTON:

09:46:24:00 –to me that turning–

LESTER HOLT:

09:46:24:00 –that’s time but–

09:46:26:00 (OVERTALK)

HILLARY CLINTON:

09:46:25:00 –over our White House to the Republicans–

LESTER HOLT:

09:46:27:00 Secretary–

09:46:26:00 (OVERTALK)

HILLARY CLINTON:

09:46:27:00 –would be bad for everybody, especially young people.

LESTER HOLT:

09:46:31:00 –a quick follow-up, a 30-second follow-up, (APPLAUSE) why is Senator Sanders beating you two to one among younger voters?

HILLARY CLINTON:

09:46:36:00 I– I– look, I have the greatest respect for Senator Sanders and– for his supporters. And I’m gonna keep working as hard as I can– to reach as many people of all ages– about what I will do, what the experience and the ideas that I have that I will bring to the White House. And I hope to have their support when I’m the Democratic nominee.

LESTER HOLT:

09:46:56:00 All right, we’re gonna–

09:46:55:00 (OVERTALK)

LESTER HOLT:

09:46:56:00 –we’re gonna take a break. When we come back, (CHEERING) big bank, big business and big differences among the three candidates on the American economy. We’ll be right back.

09:47:08:00 (MUSIC)

LESTER HOLT:

09:51:18:00 Welcome back from Charleston. Let’s turn now to the economy. Senator Sanders, you released a tough new ad last week in which without mentioning Secretary Clinton by name, you talk about two Democratic vision for regulating Wall Street. Quote, “One says it’s okay to take millions from big banks and tell them what to do. My plan, break up the big banks, close the tax loopholes, and make them pay their fair share.” What do you see as the difference between what you would do about the banks and what Secretary Clinton would do?

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:51:47:00 Well, the first difference is, I don’t take money from big banks. I don’t get personal speaking fees from Goldman Sachs. What I would do– (APPLAUSE) what I would do is understand that when you have three out of the four largest banks today bigger than they were when we bailed them out because they were too big to fail, when you have the six largest financial institutions having assets of 60% of the G.D.P. of America, it is very clear to me what you have to do.

 

09:52:22:00 You gotta bring back the 21st century Glass-Steagall legislation and you gotta break up these huge financial institutions. They have too much economic power and they have too much financial power over our entire economy. If Teddy Roosevelt were alive today, the old Republican trust buster, what he would say is, “These guys are too powerful. Break them up.” I believe that’s what the American people want to see. That’s my view. (APPLAUSE)

LESTER HOLT:

09:52:52:00 Secretary Clinton, help the voter understand the daylight between the two of you here.

HILLARY CLINTON:

09:52:57:00 Well, there’s no daylight on the basic– premise that there should be no bank too big to fail and no individual too powerful to jail. We agree on that. But where we disagree is the comments that Senator Sanders has made that don’t just affect me. I can take that. But he’s criticized President Obama for taking donations from Wall Street.

 

09:53:24:00 And President Obama has led our country out of the great recession. Senator Sanders called him weak, disappointing. He even, in 2011, publicly sought someone to run in a primary against President Obama. Now, I personally believe that President Obama’s work to push through the Dodd-Frank– (AUDIENCE REACTION) the Dodd-Frank bill and then to sign it was one of the most important regulatory schemes we’ve had since the 1930s. So I’m gonna defend (APPLAUSE) Dodd-Frank and I’m gonna defend President Obama for taking on Wall Street, (CHEERING) taking on the financial industry, and getting results.

LESTER HOLT:

09:54:09:00 Senator Sanders, your response–

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:54:09:00 Okay, first of all, set the record right. In 2006 when I ran for the Senate, Senator Barack Obama was kids enough to campaign for me. 2008, I did my best to see that he was elected. And in 2012, I worked as hard as I could to see that he was reelected. You know, I– our friends, we work together on many issues, we have some differences of opinion.

 

09:54:32:00 But here is the issue. Secretary touched on it. Can you really reform Wall Street when they are spending millions and millions of dollars on campaign contributions and when they are providing speaker fees to individuals? So it’s easy to say, “Well, I’m gonna do this and do that.” But I have doubts when people receive huge amounts of money from Wall Street. I am very proud. I do not have a super PAC. I do not want Wall Street’s money. I’ll rely on the middle class and working families for my campaign contributions–

09:55:09:00 (OVERTALK)

LESTER HOLT:

09:55:10:00 –that’s time. Governor O’Malley, I– I have a question for you– (APPLAUSE)

HILLARY CLINTON:

09:55:11:00 Well, you know, I think that– I think then, if Senator Sanders followed up on this–

LESTER HOLT:

09:55:15:00 First, 30-second response.

HILLARY CLINTON:

09:55:17:00 Your– your profusion of comments about your feelings towards President Obama– are a little strange, given what you said about him in 2011. But look, I have a plan that most commentators have said is tougher more effective, and more comprehensive.

MARTIN O’MALLEY:

09:55:35:00 That’s not true.

HILLARY CLINTON:

09:55:36:00 It builds on the Dodd-Frank– (AUDIENCE REACTION) yes it is. It builds on the Dodd-Frank regulatory–

MARTIN O’MALLEY:

09:55:41:00 It’s just not true.

HILLARY CLINTON:

09:55:42:00 –schemes. But it goes much further.

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:55:44:00 Oh come on.

HILLARY CLINTON:

09:55:45:00 Because both the governor and the senator have focused only on the big banks. Lehman Brothers, AIG, the shadow banking sector, were as big a problem in what caused the Great Recession. I go after them, and I can tell you that the hedge fund billionaires who are running ads against me right now, and Karl Rove, who started running an ad against me right now, funded by money from the financial services sector, sure think I’m the one they don’t want to be up against–

LESTER HOLT:

09:56:14:00 Governor– Governor O’Malley.

MARTIN O’MALLEY:

09:56:15:00 Yeah, thank you. (CHEERING) (APPLAUSE) Yeah, Le– Lester, what Secretary Clinton just said is actually not true. What– (APPLAUSE) I have put forward a plan that would actually put cops back on the beat of Wall Street. I have put forward a plan that was heralded as very comprehensive and realistic.

 

09:56:36:00 Look, if– if a bank robber robs a bank, and all you do is slap ’em on the wrist, he’s just gonna keep robbing banks again. The same thing is true with people in suits. Secretary Clinton, I have a tremendous amount of respect for you. But for you to say there’s no daylight on this between the three of us, is also not true. I support reinstituting a modern version of Glass-Steagall that would include going after the shadow banks, requiring capital requirements that would force them to– no longer put us on the hook for these sorts of things.

 

09:57:05:00 In prior debates, I’ve heard you even bring up– I mean, fir– now you p– bring up President Obama here in South Carolina, in defense of the fact of your cozy relationship with Wall Street. In an earlier debate, I heard you bring up even the 911, 9/11 victims to defend it. The truth of the matter is, Secretary Clinton, you did not go as far in reining in Wall Street as I would. And the fact of the matter is, the people of America deserve to have a president that’s on their side, protecting the main street economy from excesses on Wall Street and–

09:57:33:00 (OVERTALK)

LESTER HOLT:

09:57:34:00 Secretary Clinton, your 30-second response.

HILLARY CLINTON:

09:57:35:00 Yes, well– (CHEERING) (APPLAUSE) first of all– first of all, Paul Krugman, Barney Frank, others, have all endorsed my plan. Secondly, we have Dodd-Frank. It gives us the authority already to break up big banks that pose–

MARTIN O’MALLEY:

09:57:52:00 And we’ve never used it.

HILLARY CLINTON:

09:57:53:00 –that pose a risk to the financial sector. I wanna go further and add to that. And, you know, Governor, you have raised money on Wall Street. You raised a lotta money on Wall Street when you were the head of the Democrat Governor’s Association. And you were–

MARTIN O’MALLEY:

09:58:09:00 Yeah, but I haven’t gotten a penny this year. Would somebody please go up–

HILLARY CLINTON:

09:58:11:00 Well–

MARTIN O’MALLEY:

09:58:12:00 –to MartinOMalley.com– (CHEERING) go into MartinOMalley.com, send me your checks. They’re not getting– zero.

HILLARY CLINTON:

09:58:19:00 Well, the– yeah, well–

MARTIN O’MALLEY:

09:58:20:00 So what do you–

HILLARY CLINTON:

09:58:20:00 So– but the point is that if– if we’re going to be–

MARTIN O’MALLEY:

09:58:22:00 The point being–

HILLARY CLINTON:

09:58:22:00 –serious about this, and not just try to score political points–

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:58:26:00 Right.

HILLARY CLINTON:

09:58:27:00 –we should know what’s in Dodd-Frank.

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:58:28:00 Right, let’s ta–

HILLARY CLINTON:

09:58:29:00 And what’s in Dodd-Frank already gives the president–

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:58:30:00 Oh, let’s not score political points–

09:58:30:00 (OVERTALK)

HILLARY CLINTON:

09:58:32:00 –the authority to give regulators–

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:58:32:00 Let me give you an example of how–

HILLARY CLINTON:

09:58:34:00 –to make those decisions.

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:58:35:00 –corrupt– (CHEERING) how corrupt the system is. (APPLAUSE) Goldman Sachs recently fined $5 billion. Goldman Sachs has given this country two secretaries of Treasury, one on the Republicans, one on the Democrats.

MARTIN O’MALLEY:

09:58:53:00 Yeah.

BERNIE SANDERS:

09:58:54:00 The leader of Goldman Sachs is a billionaire who comes to congress and tells us we should cut social security, Medicare, and Medicaid. Secretary Clinton, and you’re not the only one, so I don’t mean to just point the finger at you. You’ve received over $600,000 in speaking fees from Goldman Sachs in one year. I find it very strange that a major financial institution that pays $5 billion in fines for breaking the law, not one of their executives is prosecuted while kids who smoke marijuana (CHEERING) get a jail sentence.

MARTIN O’MALLEY:

09:59:32:00 Andrea–

HILLARY CLINTON:

09:59:33:00 Well, it’s– l– the last point on this is Senator Sanders, you’re the only one on this stage that voted to deregulate the financial market in 2000, to take the cops off the street, to use Governor O’Malley’s phrase, to make the S.E.C. and the communities– the Commodities– Futures Trading Commission, no longer able to regulate swaps and derivatives, which were one of the main cause of the collapse in ’08. So there’s plenty–

BERNIE SANDERS:

10:00:05:00 If you want to– (APPLAUSE)

HILLARY CLINTON:

10:00:06:00 –there’s plenty of problems that we all have to face together. And I– the final thing I would say, we’re at least having a feverish debate about reining in Wall Street–

LESTER HOLT:

10:00:15:00 Senator Sanders–

HILLARY CLINTON:

10:00:15:00 –the Republicans wanna give them–

BERNIE SANDERS:

10:00:16:00 Okay.

10:00:17:00 (OVERTALK)

HILLARY CLINTON:

10:00:17:00 –more power and repeal–

BERNIE SANDERS:

10:00:18:00 Any–

HILLARY CLINTON:

10:00:19:00 –Dodd-Frank. That’s what we need to stop–

BERNIE SANDERS:

10:00:21:00 Anyone who wants to check (APPLAUSE) my record– (CHEERING) anyone who wants to check my record in taking on Wall Street, in fighting against the deregulation of Wall Street, when Wall Street put billions of dollars in lobbying, in campaign contributions, to get the government off their backs, they got the government off their backs. Turns out that they were crooks, and they destroyed our economy. I think it’s time to put the government back on their backs.

ANDREA MITCHELL:

10:00:56:00 Senator Sanders– (APPLAUSE) Senator Sanders, we’ve talked a lot about things you want to do. You want free education for everyone, you want the federal minimum wage–

10:01:05:00 (OVERTALK)

ANDREA MITCHELL:

10:01:06:00 –raised to $15 an hour, (LAUGHTER) you want to expand social security benefits–

BERNIE SANDERS:

10:01:09:00 Yeah, right.

ANDREA MITCHELL:

10:01:11:00 You’re very specific about what you want. But let’s talk about how to pay for all this–

BERNIE SANDERS:

10:01:14:00 Good.

ANDREA MITCHELL:

10:01:15:00 You have now said that you would raise taxes today, two hours or so ago, you said you would raise taxes to pay for your healthcare plan. You haven’t been specific about how to pay for the other things.

10:01:25:00 (OVERTALK)

ANDREA MITCHELL:

10:01:25:00 Would you tell us tonight?

BERNIE SANDERS:

10:01:26:00 Good. You’re right. I want to rebuild our crumbling infrastructure, create 13 million jobs. We do that by doing away with the absurd loopholes that now allows major profitable corporations to stash their money in the Cayman Islands and not in some years pay a nickel in taxes. Yes, I do. I plead guilty. I want every kid in this c– country, who has the ability, to be able to go to a public college or university tuition-free.

 

10:01:55:00 And by the way, I want to substantially lower student debt interest rates in this country as well. How do I pay for it? (APPLAUSE) I pay for it through a (UNINTEL) tax on Wall Street speculation. This country and the middle class bailed out Wall Street. Now it is Wall Street’s time to help the middle class. In fact–

MARTIN O’MALLEY:

10:02:15:00 Andrea–

BERNIE SANDERS:

10:02:15:00 –we have documented, (APPLAUSE) unlike Secretary Clinton, I have documented exactly how I would pay for our ambitious agenda.

MARTIN O’MALLEY:

10:02:24:00 Andrea, I’m the only person on this stage–

ANDREA MITCHELL:

10:02:24:00 Secretary– secretary Clinton, he mentioned–

10:02:26:00 (OVERTALK)

ANDREA MITCHELL:

10:02:26:00 –so Secretary Clinton, you want to respond?

HILLARY CLINTON:

10:02:28:00 Well, I have– actually documented– every way that I’m going to pay for what I’m doing– because I think the American public deserves to know. And you can go to my website and actually see that. But there are serious questions about how we’re going to pay for what we want to see our country do.

 

10:02:48:00 And I’m the only candidate standing here tonight who has said I will not raise taxes on the middle class. I want to raise incomes, not taxes. And I’m gonna do everything I can to make sure that the wealthy pay for debt-free tuition, for childcare, for paid family leave, to help us bring down student debt, we’re going to refinance that student debt, saving kids thousands of dollars. Yeah, and that will also come out of some of the pockets of–

ANDREA MITCHELL:

10:03:19:00 Okay–

HILLARY CLINTON:

10:03:19:00 –people in the financial services industry–

10:03:20:00 (OVERTALK)

ANDREA MITCHELL:

10:03:21:00 –but Senator Sanders, let me–

HILLARY CLINTON:

10:03:22:00 But I will tell you exactly how I pay for everything I propose–

10:03:24:00 (OVERTALK)

BERNIE SANDERS:

10:03:27:00 Here is the major point–

ANDREA MITCHELL:

10:03:27:00 Senator Sanders, let me ask you a question about taxes–

BERNIE SANDERS:

10:03:29:00 Yeah.

ANDREA MITCHELL:

10:03:29:00 –because the most (UNINTEL) political (LAUGHTER) issue in–

BERNIE SANDERS:

10:03:32:00 I got you.

ANDREA MITCHELL:

10:03:33:00 –in the last month was taxes. Now, in your healthcare plan, the plan you released tonight, you would not only raise taxes on the wealthy, the details you released indicate you would raise taxes on the middle class also. Is that correct?

BERNIE SANDERS:

10:03:45:00 What is correct, and I am disappointed that Secretary Clinton’s campaign has made this criticism. It’s a Republican criticism. Secretary Clinton does know a lot about healthcare. And she understands, I believe, that a Medicaid-for-all-single-payer program, will substantially lower the cost of healthcare for middle class families.

 

10:04:08:00 So what we have got to acknowledge, and I hope the secretary does, is we are doing away with private health insurance premiums. So instead of paying $10,000 to Blue Cross or Blue Shield, yes, some middle class families would be paying slightly more in taxes. But the result would be that that middle class family would be saving some $5,000 in healthcare costs. A little bit more in taxes, do away with private health insurance premiums. It’s a pretty good deal. (APPLAUSE)

ANDREA MITCHELL:

10:04:39:00 Senator–

10:04:39:00 (OVERTALK)

ANDREA MITCHELL:

10:04:40:00 –Senator, let me just follow up on that, because–

BERNIE SANDERS:

10:04:41:00 Yeah.

ANDREA MITCHELL:

10:04:42:00 –on Meet the Press, on December 20th, you said that you would only raise taxes on the middle class to pay for family leave. And having said that, now you say you’re gonna raise middle class taxes to pay for healthcare as well. Is that breaking your word?

BERNIE SANDERS:

10:04:55:00 No. It is not breaking my word. When you are– it’s one thing to say, “I’m raising taxes.” It’s another thing to say that we are doing away with private health insurance premiums. So if I save you $10,000 in private health insurance, and you pay a little bit more in taxes in total, there are huge savings in what your family is spending.

MARTIN O’MALLEY:

10:05:17:00 Senator, I’m the only person on this stage that’s actually balanced a budget every year for 15 years.

BERNIE SANDERS:

10:05:22:00 I was mayor for eight years, I did that as well–

MARTIN O’MALLEY:

10:05:24:00 Okay, so that was eight years. (LAUGHTER) Yeah. And Senator, but I actually did it during a budget downtime, during a recession. And– and Andrea– I had to make more cuts than any governor in the state of Maryland. But we invested more in infrastructure, more in transportation. We made our public schools number one in America five years in a w– row. And went four years in a row without a penny’s increase to college tuition.

 

10:05:46:00 The things that we need to do in our country, like debt-free college in the next five years, like making univer– like making national service a universal operation in order to cut youth employment in half in the next three years, all of these things can be done if we eliminate one entitlement we can no longer afford as a nation.

 

10:06:04:00 And that is the entitlement that the super wealthy among us, those making more than a million dollars, feel that they are entitled to paying a much, much lower marginal tax rate than what’s usual for the better part of these 80 years. And if we tax– earnings from investments on money, namely capital gains at the same rate that we tax earnings from sweat and hard work and toil, we can make the investments we need to make to make our country better. (CHEERING)

LESTER HOLT:

10:06:28:00 We’ve got a lot of ground to cover here. Many Democratic voters are passionate about the need to do something to combat the threat of climate change, including the theme of scientists from YouTube’s Minute Earth channel, here’s their take.

LESTER HOLT:

10:06:42:00 Hello from Minute Earth. Fossil fuels have long kept our cars moving and our light bulbs lit. But we now know that burning these fuels are really just heat-trapping gasses that are warming the planet, causing seas to rise and contributing to extreme weather events, like South Carolina’s devastating flooding last year.

10:06:57:00 Fighting human-caused climate change means giving up our global addiction to fossil fuels and (UNINTEL) the bulk of the world’s energy supply to alternative sources. Some countries have acted decisively to make this transition. But here at home, we still get a whopping 82% of our energy from coal, oil, and natural gas. In the U.S., political gridlock, pressure from industry lobbyists, and insufficient R&D have made an already tough battle against climate change even tougher.

LESTER HOLT:

10:07:21:00 Senator Sanders, Americans love their SUVs, which spiked in sales last year as gas prices plummeted. How do you convince Americans that the problem of climate change is so urgent that they need to change their behavior?

BERNIE SANDERS:

10:07:33:00 I think we already are. Younger generation understands it instinctively. I was home in Burlington, Vermont on Christmas Eve. The temperature was 65°. People in Vermont know what’s goin’ on. People who did ice fishing, where their ice is no longer there on the lake understand what’s going on. I’m on both the Environmental and Energy Committees.

10:07:53:00 The debate is over. Climate change is real. It is already causing major problems. And if we do not act boldly and decisively, a bad situation will become worse. It is amazing to me, and I think we’ll have agreement on this up here, that we have a major party called the Republican Party that is so owned by the fossil fuel industry, and their campaign contributions, that they don’t even have the courage, the decency to listen to the scientists.

10:08:25:00 It is beyond my comprehension (APPLAUSE) how we can elect the president of the United States, somebody like Trump, who believes that climate change is a hoax, invented by the Chinese. (LAUGHTER) Bottom line is, we need to be bold and decisive, we can create millions of jobs. We must, for the sake of our kids and grandchildren, transform our energy system away from fossil fuel to energy efficiency and sustainable energy–

10:08:53:00 (OVERTALK)

BERNIE SANDERS:

10:08:54:00 I’ve got the most comprehensive legislation in the Senate to do that. And as president, I will fight to make that happen–

LESTER HOLT:

10:09:00:00 Governor O’Malley, 30 seconds–

10:09:01:00 (OVERTALK)

MARTIN O’MALLEY:

10:09:02:00 Thank you. (APPLAUSE) Lester, on this stage tonight, this Democratic stage, where we actually believe in science, (LAUGHTER) I would like to challenge and invite my colleagues here on this stage to join me in putting forward a plan to move us to a 100% clean, electric energy grid by 2050. It can be done with solar, with wind, (APPLAUSE) with new technologies, with green buildings.

10:09:27:00 This can happen. But in all– President Obama made us more energy independent. But– but in all of the above strategy didn’t land us on the moon. We need American ingenuity and we need to reach this goal by 2050 for the sake of our kids–

LESTER HOLT:

10:09:40:00 That’s time. We’re gonna take a break–

10:09:42:00 (OVERTALK)

LESTER HOLT:

10:09:42:00 When we return, (APPLAUSE) the late-breaking development regarding Iran. (MUSIC) The threat of ISIS now more real than ever on U.S. soil. Americans in fear, and hearing few good answers. We’ll be right back. (LONG PAUSE) (MUSIC) Charleston, Andrea Mitchell has questions now for the candidates, starting with Iran.

ANDREA MITCHELL:

10:16:12:00 Thank you, Lester. Senator Sanders, the nuclear deal is now in force. Iran is getting us billions of dollars. Several Americans who have been held are now gonna be heading home. The president said today is a good day. It’s a good day for diplomacy. Is it time now to restore diplomatic relations for the first time since 1979, and actually reopen a U.S. embassy in Tehran?

BERNIE SANDERS:

10:16:36:00 I think what we have got to do is move as aggressively as we can to normalize relations– with Iran, understanding that Iran’s behavior in so many ways is something that we disagree with. Their support for terrorism– the anti-American rhetoric that we’re hearing from some of their leadership is something that is not acceptable.

10:17:00:00 On the other hand, the fact that we managed to reach an agreement, something that I very strongly supported, that prevents Iran from getting a nuclear weapon, and that we did that without going to war, and that I believe we’re seeing a thaw in our relationships with Iran is a very positive step. So if your question is, do I want to see that relationship become more positive in the future? Yes.

10:17:27:00 Can I tell you that we should open an embassy in Tehran tomorrow? No, I don’t think we should. But I think the goal has got to be, as we have done with Cuba, to move in warm relations with a very powerful and important country in this world.

ANDREA MITCHELL:

10:17:41:00 Your response, Secretary Clinton? (CHEERING) (APPLAUSE)

HILLARY CLINTON:

10:17:44:00 Well, I’m very proud– of the– Iran nuclear agreement. I was– very pleased to be part of– what the president put into action when he took office. I was responsibility for getting those sanctions imposed, which put the pressure on Iran that brought them to the negotiating table, which resulted in this agreement.

10:18:06:00 And so they have been, so far, following their requirements under the agreement. But I think we still have to carefully watch them. We’ve had one good day over 36 years, and I think we need more good days before we move more rapidly– toward any know normalization. And we have to be sure that they are truly going to implement the agreements. And then we have to go after them on a lot of their other bad behavior in the region, which is causing enormous problems in Syria, Yemen, Iraq, and elsewhere.

10:18:39:00 (OVERTALK)

ANDREA MITCHELL:

10:18:39:00 You– you mentioned Syria, let me ask you about Syria, all of you. Let’s turn to Syria, the civil war that has been raging there. Are there any circumstances in which you could see deploying significant numbers of ground forces in Syria? Not just special forces, special operators, but significant ground forces to combat ISIS in a direct combat role? Let me start with you, Secretary Clinton (UNINTEL).

HILLARY CLINTON:

10:19:00:00 Absolutely not. I have a three-point plan that does not include American ground forces. It includes the United States leading an air coalition, which is what we are doing. Supporting fighters on the ground, the Iraqi Army, which is beginning to show more ability, the Sunni fighters– that we are now helping to reconstitute, and Kurdish fighters on both sides of the border.

10:19:25:00 I think we also have to try to disrupt their supply chain of foreign fighters and foreign money. And we do have to contest them in online space. So I’m very committed to both going after ISIS, but also supporting what Secretary Kerry is doing to try to move on a political, diplomatic course to try to begin to slow down and hopefully end the carnage in Syria, which is the root of so many of the problems that we see in the region and beyond.

ANDREA MITCHELL:

10:19:57:00 Senator Sanders– (APPLAUSE)

BERNIE SANDERS:

10:19:58:00 This is–

ANDREA MITCHELL:

10:19:58:00 –ground forces? Yes or no?

BERNIE SANDERS:

10:20:00:00 As everybody here knows, this is an incredibly complicated and difficult issue. And I applaud, I know President Obama’s been gettin’ a lotta criticism on this. I think he is doing the right thing. What the nightmare is, which many of my Republican colleagues appear to want, is to not have learned the lesson of Iraq. To get American young men and women involved in perpetual warfare, in the quagmire of Syria and the Middle East would be an unmitigated disaster that as president, I will do everything in my power to avoid.

MARTIN O’MALLEY:

10:20:38:00 Andrea–

BERNIE SANDERS:

10:20:39:00 We should– (APPLAUSE)

ANDREA MITCHELL:

10:20:39:00 Governor O’Malley?

BERNIE SANDERS:

10:20:40:00 We should learn– we should learn from King Abdullah of Jordan, one of the few heroes in a very unheroic place. And what Abdullah said, is this is a war for the soul of Islam. And that Muslim troops should be on the ground with our support and the support of other major countries. That is how we destroy ISIS, not with American troops in perpetual warfare.

ANDREA MITCHELL:

10:21:09:00 Governor O’Malley?

MARTIN O’MALLEY:

10:21:09:00 Thank you. (APPLAUSE) Andrea, governors have led us to victory in two world wars by doing what America does best. And that is by joining forces with others, by acting in coalitions. And I believe that President Obama’s doing the right thing in this case. We need to learn the lessons from the past.

10:21:28:00 We do need to provide the special– special ops advisors. We n– do need to provide the technical support that over the long term, we need to develop new alliances. We need a much more proactive national security strategy that reduces these threats before they rise to the level where it feels like we need to pull for a division of marines.

10:21:45:00 And I also want to add– one other thing here. I appreciate the fact that in our debate, we don’t use the term you hear Republicans throwin’ around, tryin’ to look all bravado and macho, sending other kids tr– kids into– combat. They keep using the term “boots on the ground.” A woman in Burlington, Iowa said to me, “Governor, when you’re with your colleagues, please don’t refer to my son, who has served two du– du– tours of duty in Iraq as a pair of ‘boots on the ground.’” We need to be mindful (APPLAUSE) of the– (UNINTEL PHRASE).

ANDREA MITCHELL:

10:22:15:00 I have a question– I have a question for Senator Sanders. Did the policies of the Obama administration, in which Secretary Clinton of course was a part, create a vacuum in Iraq and Syria that helped ISIS grow?

BERNIE SANDERS:

10:22:29:00 No. I think the vacuum was created– by the disastrous war in Iraq. Which I vigorously opposed. Not only did I vote against it, I helped lead the opposition. And what happened there is yeah, it’s easy to get rid of a two-bit dictator like Saddam Hussein, but there wasn’t the kind of thought as to what happens the day after you get him, and what kind of political vacuum occurs, and who rises up?

10:22:59:00 Ca– groups like ISIS. So I think that President Obama made a promise to the American people when he ran. And he said, “You know what, I’m gonna do my best to bring American troops home.” And I supported what he did. Our job is to train and provide military support for Muslim countries in the area who are prepared to take on ISIS.

10:23:23:00 And one point that I wanna make here that is not made very often. You have incredibly wealthy countries in that region. Countries like Saudi Arabia, countries like Qatar. Qatar happens to be the largest– wealthiest country per capita in the world. They have got to start putting in some skin in the game and not just ask the United States (APPLAUSE) to do it.

ANDREA MITCHELL:

10:23:46:00 Senator– Secretary Clinton, I wanna talk to you about red lines. Because former Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel said in a recent interview that President Obama’s decisions to stand down on planned missile strikes against Damascus, after Assad had used chemical weapons, hurt the president’s credibility. Should the president have stuck to his red line once he drew it?

HILLARY CLINTON:

10:24:09:00 Look, I– I think that the president’s decision– to go after the chemical weapons, once there was a potential opportunity to build on when the Russians– opened that door, resulted in a very positive outcome. We were able to get the chemical weapons out. I know from my own experience– as secretary of State– that we were deeply worried about Assad’s forces using chemical weapons, because it would have had not only an horrific effect on people in Syria, but it could very well have affected the surrounding states– Jordan, Israel, Lebanon, Turkey. So getting those chemical weapons out was a big–

ANDREA MITCHELL:

10:24:54:00 But should he–

HILLARY CLINTON:

10:24:54:00 –big deal. But–

ANDREA MITCHELL:

10:24:54:00 Should he have stuck to his guns–

10:24:56:00 (OVERTALK)

HILLARY CLINTON:

10:24:57:00 Well, but– but look–

ANDREA MITCHELL:

10:24:57:00 –or did it hurt U.S. credibility?

HILLARY CLINTON:

10:24:58:00 I– I think as commander in chief, you’ve got to constantly be evaluating the decisions you have to make. I know a little bit about this, having spent many hours in the situation room, advising President Obama. And I wanna just add to something that Senator Sanders said. The United States had a very big interest in trying to help stabilize the region.

10:25:23:00 If there is any blame to be spread around, it starts with the prime minister of Iraq, who sectarianized his military, se– setting Shia against Sunni. It is amplified by Assad, who has waged one of the bloodiest, most terrible attacks on his own people, 250,000 plus dead, millions fleeing, causing this vacuum that has been filled, unfortunately, by terrorist groups– including ISIS.

10:25:54:00 So I think we are in the midst of great turmoil in this region. We have a proxy conflict going on between Saudi Arabia and Iran. You know, one of the– criticisms I’ve had of– Senator Sanders is his suggestion that, you know, Iranian troops be used to try to end the war in Syria and go after ISIS–

ANDREA MITCHELL:

10:26:14:00 Your– your ti– your time is up, Secretary–

10:26:15:00 (OVERTALK)

BERNIE SANDERS:

10:26:16:00 –let me just–

HILLARY CLINTON:

10:26:16:00 Which I don’t think would be a good idea–

BERNIE SANDERS:

10:26:17:00 Okay, but let me–

10:26:18:00 (OVERTALK)

HILLARY CLINTON:

10:26:18:00 –but overall, a lot of the forces at work in the region–

BERNIE SANDERS:

10:26:21:00 All right.

HILLARY CLINTON:

10:26:22:00 –are ones that we cannot–

BERNIE SANDERS:

10:26:23:00 Okay.

HILLARY CLINTON:

10:26:24:00 –directly influence, but we can–

BERNIE SANDERS:

10:26:27:00 All right, let me suggest–

10:26:27:00 (OVERTALK)

ANDREA MITCHELL:

10:26:31:00 Senator Sanders? (APPLAUSE)

BERNIE SANDERS:

10:26:33:00 Where– where Secretary Clinton and I think– I– I agree with most of– of– of what she said. But where I think we do have an honest– disagreement is that in the incredible quagmire of Syria, where it’s hard to know who’s fighting who, and if you give arms to this guy, it may end up in ISIS’s hands the next day. We all know that.

10:26:53:00 And we all know, no argument, the secretary is absolutely right. Assad is a butcher of his own people, a man using chemical weapons against his own people. This is beyond disgusting. But I think in terms of pr– our priorities in the region, our first priority– priority must be the destruction of ISIS.

10:27:14:00 Our second priority must be getting rid of Assad through some political settlement, working with Iran, working with Russia. But the immediate task is to bring all interests together, who want to destroy ISIS, including Russia, including Iran, including our Muslim allies, to make that the major priority.

MARTIN O’MALLEY:

10:27:36:00 But in all of that, Senator and Secretary, I think we’re leaving out something very important here. And that is that we still don’t have the human intelligence, overt, in terms of diplomatic intelligence, or covert, to understand even what the heck happens as the secondary and tertiary effects of some of these things. (COUGH)

10:27:55:00 We are walking through this– this region, Andrea, without the human intelligence that we need. And we need to make a renewed investment as a country into bringing up a new generation of foreign service officers and bringing up a new generation of business people, and then actually understanding and having relationships in these places so we have a better sense of what the heck happens after a dictator topples and can take action to prevent another safe haven and another iteration of terror.

ANDREA MITCHELL:

10:28:23:00 Your time is up.

LESTER HOLT:

10:28:24:00 Yes–

ANDREA MITCHELL:

10:28:25:00 Lester?

LESTER HOLT:

10:28:25:00 –as (APPLAUSE) Senator Sanders mentioned– Russia a moment ago. Secretary Clinton, you famously handed Russia’s foreign minister a reset button in 2009. Since then, Russia has annexed Crimea– fomented a war in Ukraine, provided weapons that downed an airliner, and launched operations, as we just d– discussed, to support Assad in Syria. As president, would you hand Vladimir Putin a reset button?

HILLARY CLINTON:

10:28:48:00 Well, I’d depend for what I got for it. And I can tell you what we got– in the first term. We got a new start treaty to reduce nuclear weapons– between the United States and Russia. We got permission to resupply our troops in Afghanistan by traveling across– Russia. We got Russia to sign on– to our sanctions against Iran, and other– very important– commitments.

10:29:15:00 So look, in diplomacy, you are always trying to see how you can figure out the interests of the other, to see if there isn’t some way you can advance your security and your values. When Putin came back in the fall of 2011– it was very clear he came back with a mission. And I began speaking out as soon as that happened, because there were some fraudulent elections held, and Russians poured out into the streets to demand their freedom. And he cracked down, and in fact, accused me of fomenting it. So we now know that he has a mixed– record, to say the least, and we have to figure out how to deal with him. We–

LESTER HOLT:

10:29:59:00 What’s your relationship with him?

HILLARY CLINTON:

10:30:01:00 Well, my relationship with him– (LAUGH) it’s– it’s– it’s interesting. It’s– (LAUGHTER) it’s one I think of– respect. We’ve had some very tough dealings with one another. And– I know that he’s someone that you have to continually stand up to. Because like many bullies, he is somebody who will take as much as he possibly can, unless you do.

10:30:32:00 And we need to get the Europeans to be more willing to stand up. I was pleased they put sanctions on after Crimea and Eastern Ukraine, and the downing of the airliner. But we’ve got to be more united in preventing Putin from taking a more aggressive stance in Europe and the Middle East.

LESTER HOLT:

10:30:49:00 We wanna turn right now (APPLAUSE) to the issue of balancing national security concerns with the privacy rights of Americans. That bring us to YouTube and this question.

MARQUES BROWNLEE:

10:31:00:00 Hi, my name is Marques Brownlee, and I’ve been making YouTube videos about electronics and gadgets for the past seven years. I think America’s future success is tied to getting all kinds of tech right. Tech companies are responsible for the encryption technology to protect personal data. But the government wants a back door into that information. So do you think it’s possible to find common ground? And where do you stand on privacy versus security?

LESTER HOLT:

10:31:20:00 So Governor O’Malley?

MARTIN O’MALLEY:

10:31:21:00 Thank you. I believe whether it’s a back door or front door, that the– that the American principle of law should still hold. That our federal government should have to get a warrant whether they wanna come through your back door or your front door. (APPLAUSE) And I also agree, Lester, with– with Benjamin Franklin, who said, “No people should ever give up their privacy or their freedoms in a promise for security.”

10:31:42:00 So– well, we’re a collaborative people. We need collaborative leadership here, with Silicon Valley, and other bright people in my own state of– of Maryland, around M.S.A. that can actually figure this out. But there are certain immutable principles that– will not become– antique things in our country so long as we defend our country and its values and its freedoms.

10:32:02:00 And one of the things is our– our right to be secure in our homes and our right to expect that our federal government should have to get a warrant. I also wanna say that while we’ve made some progress on the– patriot act, I do believe that we need an adversarial port system there. We need a public advocate, we need to develop jurisprudence so that we can develop a body of law that protects the privacy of Americans in the information and digital age.

LESTER HOLT:

10:32:26:00 That’s time. You have all talked about– what you would do fighting ISIS over there. But we’ve been hit in this country by home-grown terrorists, from Chattanooga, to San Bernardino– the recent shooting of a police officer in Philadelphia. How are you gonna fight lone wolves here, Senator Sanders–

MARTIN O’MALLEY:

10:32:42:00 Okay, Lester, year in and year out, I was the leader of the U.S.–

10:32:44:00 (OVERTALK)

LESTER HOLT:

10:32:45:00 –Senator Sanders, I wasn’t clear. I apologize.

BERNIE SANDERS:

10:32:47:00 Okay. I just wanted to add– in the previous question– I voted against the USA Patriot Act for many of the reasons that Governor O’Malley mentioned. But it is not only the government that we have to worry about, it is private corporations. You would all be amazed, or maybe not, about the amount of information private companies and the government have in terms of the websites that you access, the products that you buy, where you are this very moment. And it is very clear to me that public policy has not caught up with the explosion of technology. So yes, we have to work with Silicon Valley to make sure that we do not allow ISIS to translate information–

LESTER HOLT:

10:33:32:00 But in terms of lone wolves– the threat, how do you deal with it–

BERNIE SANDERS:

10:33:36:00 Right, what we have got to do there is, among other things, as I was just saying, have Silicon Valley help us to make sure that information being transmitted through the internet, or in other ways– by ISIS, is in fact, discovered. But I do believe we can do that without violating the constitutional and privacy rights of the American people.

LESTER HOLT:

10:34:00:00 We have to go to–

10:34:00:00 (OVERTALK)

LESTER HOLT:

10:34:01:00 We have to go to a break, but when we come back, let me get to some of the burning questions these candidates have yet to answer–

10:34:06:00 (OVERTALK)

LESTER HOLT:

10:34:07:00 –to talk about.

10:38:08:00 (MUSIC)

LESTER HOLT:

10:38:15:00 And welcome back to Charleston. As we were going to a break S– Secretary Clinton I– I cut you off. I– I’ll give you 30 seconds to respond on the issue of– lone wolves.

MARTIN O’MALLEY:

10:38:22:00 Can I get 30 seconds too? (LAUGHTER) (CHEERING)

LESTER HOLT:

10:38:33:00 Secretary Clinton.

HILLARY CLINTON:

10:38:36:00 Well, I– I wanted to– say– and I’ll do it quickly, I was very pleased that– leaders of President Obama’s– administration went out to Silicon Valley last week and began exactly this conversation about what we can do consistent with privacy and security.

10:38:52:00 We need better intelligence cooperation. We need to be sure that we’re getting the best intelligence that we can from friends and allies around the world. And then we’ve gotta recognize our first line of defense against lone wolf attacks is among Muslim Americans. And it is not only shameful, it is dangerous for the kinds of comments you’re hearing from the Republican side. We need to be reaching out and unifying our country against (CHEERING) terrorist attacks and lone wolves and working with Muslim Americans.

10:39:23:00 (OVERTALK)

LESTER HOLT:

10:39:23:00 Andrea has a follow-up.

ANDREA MITCHELL:

10:39:25:00 Just– just a quick follow-up–

MARTIN O’MALLEY:

10:39:26:00 Andrea– Andrea–

10:39:28:00 (OVERTALK)

ANDREA MITCHELL:

10:39:27:00 –for Secretary Clinton, just– just a moment, governor.

MARTIN O’MALLEY:

10:39:29:00 –my 30 seconds?

ANDREA MITCHELL:

10:39:30:00 But– but– Secretary Clinton you said that the leaders from the intelligence community went to Silicon Valley. They were flatly turned down. They got nowhere.

HILLARY CLINTON:

10:39:38:00 That is not what I’ve heard. Let me leave it at that.

MARTIN O’MALLEY:

10:39:40:00 Andrea, I need to talk about homeland security and preparedness. Ever since the attacks of September 11th, 30 seconds, ever since the attacks of September 11th my colleagues, Democratic and Republican mayors, Democratic and Republican governors made me their leader on homeland scrutiny and preparedness.

10:39:53:00 Here in the homeland unlike combating ISIL abroad we’re almost like it’s– your body’s immune system. It’s able to protect your body against bad bugs not necessarily ’cause it outnumbers ’em but it’s better connected. The fusion centers, the– bio-surveillance systems, better prepared first responders.

10:40:11:00 But there’s another front in this battle and it is this. That’s the political front. And if Donald Trump wants to start a registry in our country of people by faith he can start with me. And I will sign up as one who is totally opposed to his fascist appeals that wants to vilify American Muslims. That can do more damage to our democracy than any s– thing–

10:40:33:00 (OVERTALK)

LESTER HOLT:

10:40:34:00 All right, that’s time. And we do– we (CHEERING) do have to move on. Secretary Clinton, this is the first time–

10:40:38:00 (OVERTALK)

LESTER HOLT:

10:40:39:00 –that–

BERNIE SANDERS:

10:40:40:00 Can I just get a very brief response. Very brief.

LESTER HOLT:

10:40:41:00 –thir– third seconds, Senator.

BERNIE SANDERS:

10:40:44:00 Okay. One– and– and I agree with what the secretary said and– and what Governor O’Malley said. But here’s an issue that we also should talk about. We have $600 billion military budget. It is a budget larger than the next eight countries.

10:40:59:00 Unfortunately much of that budget continues to fight the old Cold War with the Soviet Union. Very little of that budget– less than 10% actually goes into fighting ISIS and international terrorism. We need to be thinkin’ hard about making fundamental changes in the priorities of the defense department.

LESTER HOLT:

10:41:25:00 All right, Secretary Clinton, (APPLAUSE) this is the first time that a spouse of a former president could be elected president. You have said that President Clinton would advise you on economic issues. But be specific if you can. Are you talking about– a kitchen table role on economics or will he have a real policy role?

HILLARY CLINTON:

10:41:43:00 Well, I– it’ll start at the kitchen table. We’ll see how it goes from there. (LAUGHTER) And I– (CHEERING) I’m gonna have the very best advisors that I can possibly have. And when it comes to the economy– and what was accomplished under my husband’s leadership in the 90s, especially when it came to raising income for everybody and lifting more people out of poverty than any time in recent history you bet I’m gonna ask for his ideas, I’m gonna ask for his advice.

10:42:18:00 And I’m gonna use him as– a good will– emissary to go around the country to find the best ideas we’ve got. Because I do believe, as he said, everything that’s wrong with America has been solved somewhere in America. We just have to do more of it and we have to reach out, especially in the poor communities and communities of color to give more people their own chance to get ahead.

LESTER HOLT:

10:42:41:00 Senator Sanders, a 30 second response (CHEERING) here.

BERNIE SANDERS:

10:42:49:00 Great ideas. Governor O’Malley, Secretary Clinton. But here’s the truth, if you have an administration stacked with Wall Street appointees it ain’t gonna accomplish very much. So here’s a promise that I make, I mentioned a moment ago how corrupt the system is. Goldman Sachs paying a $5 billion fine gives this country in recent history a Republican secretary of treasury, a Democratic secretary of treasury. Here’s a promise, if elected president Goldman Sachs is not gonna have– bring forth a secretary of treasury for a Sanders’ administration.

ANDREA MITCHELL:

10:43:29:00 (CHEERING) Senator Sanders, let me ask you a question, you called Bill Clinton’s past transgressions, quote, totally, totally, totally disgraceful and unacceptable. Senator, do you regret saying that?

BERNIE SANDERS:

10:43:43:00 I was asked a question, you know, one of the things, Andrea, and I– that– that question annoys me. I cannot (LAUGHTER) walk down the street– Secretary Clinton knows this– without being told how much I have to attack Secretary Clinton. Wanna get me on the front pages of the paper, I make some vicious attack. I have avoided doing that, trying to run an issue oriented campaign. (CHEERING) I was–

10:44:11:00 (OVERTALK)

BERNIE SANDERS:

10:44:12:00 –asked a question.

ANDREA MITCHELL:

10:44:14:00 You didn’t have to answer it that way though. Why–

BERNIE SANDERS:

10:44:13:00 Well–

ANDREA MITCHELL:

10:44:14:00 –did you?

BERNIE SANDERS:

10:44:15:00 –then if I don’t answer it then there’s another front page. So yes. (LAUGHTER) And I mean this seriously. You know that. We’ve been through this. Yes, his behavior was deplorable. Have I ever once said a word about that issue? No I have not. I’m gonna debate Secretary Clinton, Governor O’Malley on the issues facing the American people. Not Bill Clinton’s personal (CHEERING) views (?).

LESTER HOLT:

10:44:38:00 We will take a break. We’ll continue from Charleston right after this. (LAUGHTER)

10:44:43:00 (MUSIC)

10:44:52:00 (BREAK IN TAPE)

10:48:54:00 (MUSIC)

LESTER HOLT:

10:49:00:00 Welcome back, everybody. Finally before we go tonight we set up here to understand points of differences between you. We believe we– we’ve learned a lot here. But before we leave, is there anything that you really wanted to say tonight that you haven’t gotten a chance to say? And we’ll start with Governor O’Malley. (LAUGHTER) (CHEERING) Didn’t see that coming–

10:49:29:00 (OVERTALK)

LESTER HOLT:

10:49:30:00 –did you?

MARTIN O’MALLEY:

10:49:30:00 You know what, we’re gonna have to get 20 minutes to do it. So (LAUGHTER) look I believe there–

10:49:34:00 (OVERTALK)

MARTIN O’MALLEY:

10:49:35:00 –are many issues, so what– 60 seconds for this?

LESTER HOLT:

10:49:35:00 Sixty seconds. We’d appreciate it.

MARTIN O’MALLEY:

10:49:38:00 There are so many issues that– that we haven’t been able to discuss here. We have not fully discussed immigration reform and the deplorable number of immigrant detention camps that our nation’s now maintaining. We haven’t discussed the shameful treatment that the people of Puerto Rico, our fellow Americans, are being treated with by these hedge funds that are working (UNINTEL). (APPLAUSE)

10:50:00:00 We haven’t discussed the fact that in our own hemisphere we have the danger of nation state failures because of drug traffickers in– in Honduras and Guatemala and El Salvador. I guess the bottom line is this, look, we are– a great people when we act at home and abroad.

10:50:15:00 Based on the beliefs that unite us, our belief in the dignity of every person, our belief in our own common good. There is no challenge that is too great for us to overcome provided we bring forward in these divided times new leadership that can heal our divides here at home and bring our principles into alignment abroad. We’re on the threshold of a new era of American progress. And I believe we have only need to join forces together and cross that threshold into a new era of American prosperity.

LESTER HOLT:

10:50:40:00 And that’s time.

MARTIN O’MALLEY:

10:50:42:00 Thanks a lot. (CHEERING)

LESTER HOLT:

10:50:44:00 Secretary Clinton.

HILLARY CLINTON:

10:50:50:00 Well, Lester, I– I spent a lot of time last week being outraged by what’s happening in Flint, Michigan. And I think every (CHEERING) single American should be outraged. We’ve had a city in the United States of America where the population which is poor in many ways and majority African-American has been drinking and bathing in lead contaminated water.

10:51:15:00 And the governor of that state acted as though he didn’t really care. He had request for help but he basically stonewalled. I’ll tell you what, if the kids in a rich suburb of Detroit had been drinking contaminated water and being bathed in it there would’ve been action. So I sent my top campaign aide down there to talk to the– mayor of Flint to see what I could do to help.

10:51:39:00 And I issued a statement about what we needed to do. And then I went on a TV show and said it was outrageous that the governor hadn’t acted. And within two hours he had. I wanna be a president takes care of the big (CHEERING) problems and the problems that are affecting the people of our country every day.

LESTER HOLT:

10:51:58:00 Thank you. Senator Sanders.

MARTIN O’MALLEY:

10:52:04:00 Well, Secretary Clinton was right. And what I did which I think is also right is demanded the resignation of the governor. A man who acts that irresponsibly (APPLAUSE) should not stay in power. Now we are a great nation. And we’ve heard a lotta great ideas here tonight.

10:52:22:00 But let’s be honest and let’s be truthful. Very little is going to be done to transform our economy and to create the kind of middle class we need unless we end a corrupt campaign finance system which is undermining American democracy. (CHEERING) We have gotta get rid of super pack. We have got to get rid of citizens united.

10:52:55:00 And what we have got to do is create a political revolution which revitalizes American democracy, which brings millions of young people and working people into the political process. To say loudly and clearly that the government of the United States of America belongs to all of us and not just a handful of wealthy campaign contributors.

LESTER HOLT:

10:53:20:00 All right, well, thank you. (CHEERING) And thanks to all of you for being here tonight, shedding light on some of the differences– as Americans get ready to vote. I also wanna thank the Congressional Black Caucus Institute and certainly my friend and colleague, Andrea Mitchell. This has been great. It’s been a great, spirited conversation a new– American people appreciate it. Let me turn it over to my friend, Chuck Todd, now.

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Full Text Campaign Buzz 2016 December 19, 2015: Third Democratic Debate in New Hampshire Transcript

ELECTION 2016

CampaignBuzz2016

CAMPAIGN BUZZ 2016

Transcript: Read the Full Text of the Third Democratic Debate in New Hampshire

Source: Time, 12-19-15

Three candidates for the Democratic presidential nomination met to debate for the third time Saturday night.

Former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders and former Maryland Gov. Martin O’Malley debated at Saint Anselm College in New Hampshire. The moderators were David Muir and Martha Raddatz of ABC News.

Here is a complete transcript of the debate.

ANNOUNCER: The race is tight, couldn’t be closer, between Hillary and Bernie right here in New Hampshire. And now, in just moments, with so much on the line, they face each other and the country, live from Saint Anselm College in Manchester, New Hampshire, the Democratic debate.

Here again, David Muir and Martha Raddatz.

(APPLAUSE)

MUIR: And we do say good evening to you from New Hampshire tonight. Over the next two hours, we’re going to have a chance to take a measure of the candidates vying to be the Democratic nominee for president.

It, of course, is the most important thing we do as a democracy: Choosing a president, the individual who will lead us through peace and prosperity, through war and conflict.

RADDATZ: They have all answered many questions in the past few months, but much has changed in the world since they last debated five weeks ago. And this is the last debate of the year. In less than two months, voters in this state will go to the polls.

MUIR: So please welcome the candidates for the Democratic nomination for president, Secretary Hillary Clinton…

(APPLAUSE)

RADDATZ: Governor Martin O’Malley…

(APPLAUSE)

MUIR: … and Senator Bernie Sanders.

(APPLAUSE)

RADDATZ: And good evening to you all. The rules for tonight are very basic and have been agreed to by all three campaigns in advance. Candidates can take up to a minute-and-a-half to respond directly to a question. For a rebuttal, for a follow-up, 45 seconds will be allowed. There are green, yellow, and red lights that each candidate will see to signal when time is running out and when they’re supposed to be finished with their answers.

MUIR: We will be tackling many critical issues right here tonight, and we begin with opening statements, in alphabetical order, and Secretary Clinton.

CLINTON: Well, thank you. And I’m delighted to be here in New Hampshire for this debate.

You know, the American president has to both keep our families safe and make the economy grow in a way that helps everyone, not just those at the top. That’s the job. I have a strategy to combat and defeat ISIS without getting us involved in another ground war, and I have plans to raise incomes and deal with a lot of the problems that keep families up at night.

I’m very clear that we have a distinct difference between those of us on this stage tonight and all of our Republican counterparts. From my perspective, we have to prevent the Republicans from rolling back the progress that we’ve made. They would repeal the Affordable Care Act, not improve it. They would give more tax breaks to the super-wealthy and corporations, not to the middle class. And they would, despite all their tough talk about terrorism, continue to let people who are on the no-fly list buy guns.

So we have a lot of work to do in this campaign to make it clear where we stand in the Democratic Party, what we will do for our country, and I look forward to this evening’s discussion of real issues that face the American people.

Thank you.

RADDATZ: Thank you, Secretary Clinton.

(APPLAUSE)

Governor O’Malley?

O’MALLEY: Martha, thank you. Tonight we have a different debate than the debates that we have been allowed to have so far, because tonight is different because of this reason, that in the course of this presidential campaign America has again been attacked by jihadi terrorists, American lives taken from us. So, yes, we must talk about our ideas to move our economy forward, but the first job of the president of the United States is to protect the people of the United States.

I visited with a number of our neighbors in Northern Virginia at a mosque last Friday. And as I looked out there at the eyes of our neighbors, I also looked in the eyes of veterans. I looked into the eyes of Boy Scouts. I looked into the eyes of moms and dads who would do anything in their power to protect our country’s values and our freedoms.

O’MALLEY: What our nation needs right now is to realize that, while we face a terrible danger, we also face a different sort of political danger. And that is the danger that democracies find themselves susceptible to when unscrupulous leaders try to turn us upon each other. What our country needs right now is new leadership that will bring us together around the values that unite us and the freedoms that we share as Americans.

We will rise to challenge of ISIL and we will rise together to the challenges that we face in our economy. But we will only do so if we hold true to the values and the freedoms that unite us, which means we must never surrender them to terrorists, must never surrender our Americans values to racist, must never surrender to the fascist pleas of billionaires with big mouths.

We are a better country than this. Our enduring symbol is not the barbed wire fence, it is the Statue of Liberty. And America’s best days are in front of us if we move forward together.

(APPLAUSE)

MUIR: Senator Sanders.

SANDERS: Good evening.

I am running for president of the United States because it is too late for establishment politics and establishment economics. I’m running for president because our economy is rigged because working people are working longer hours for lower wages and almost all of new wealth and income being created is going to the top one percent. I’m running for president because I’m going to create an economy that works for working families not just billionaires.

I’m running for president because we have a campaign finance system which is corrupt, where billionaires are spending hundreds of millionaires of dollars to buy candidates who will represent their interests rather than the middle class and working families. I’m running because we need to address the planetary crisis of climate change and take on the fossil fuel industry and transform our energy system away from fossil fuel to energy efficiency and sustainable energy.

I’m running for president because I want a new foreign policy; one that takes on Isis, one that destroys ISIS, but one that does not get us involved in perpetual warfare in the quagmire of the Middle East but rather works around a major coalition of wealthy and powerful nations supporting Muslim troops on the ground. That’s the kind of coalition we need and that’s the kind of coalition I will put together.

(APPLAUSE)

MUIR: Senator Sanders thank you and thank you all.

We do have a lot of important issues to get here tonight and we want to address the controversy of the last 24 hours right off the top because we heard some of the most heated rhetoric of the campaign so far between two of the campaigns on this stage tonight.

Senator Sanders, you fired a campaign staffer you have sued the Democratic National Committee; all of this after your campaign acknowledge that some of your staffers quote, “irresponsibly accessed data from another campaign.” The Clinton campaign called this a very egregious breech of data of ethics and said, quote, “our data was stolen.”

Did they overstate this or were your staffers essentially stealing part of the Clinton playbook?

SANDERS: David, let me give you a little bit of background here.

The DNC has hired vendors. On two occasions, there were breeches in information two months ago. Our staff found information on our computers from the Clinton campaign. And when our staffers said, “whoa, what’s going here?” They went to the DNC quietly.

They went to the vendor and said, “hey, something is wrong,” and that was quietly dealt with. None of that information was looked at. Our staffer at that point did exactly the right thing.

A few days ago a similar incident happened. There was a breach because the DNC vendor screwed up, information came to our campaign. In this case, our staff did the wrong thing — they looked a that information. As soon as we learned that they looked at that information – we fired that person. We are now doing an independent internal investigation to see who else was involved.

Thirdly, what I have a really problem, and as you mentioned – this is a problem, I recognize it as a problem. But what the DNC did arbitrarily without discussing it with us is shut off our access to our information crippling our campaign. That is an egregious act. I’m glad that late last night, that was resolved.

SANDERS: Fourthly, I work — look forward to working with Secretary Clinton for an investigation, an independent investigation, about all of the breaches that have occurred from day one in this campaign, because I am not convinced that information from our campaign may not have ended up in her campaign. Don’t know that.

But we need an independent investigation, and I hope Secretary Clinton will agree with me for the need of that.

Last point. When we saw the breach two months, we didn’t go running to the media and make a big deal about it. And it bothers me very much that, rather than working on this issue to resolve it, it has become many press releases from the Clinton campaign later.

MUIR: But Senator, you do mention the DNC — the vender. But you said of your staff that they did the wrong thing.

SANDERS: Absolutely.

MUIR: So, does Secretary Clinton deserve an apology tonight?

SANDERS: Yes, I apologize.

MUIR: Secretary Clinton…

(APPLAUSE)

SANDERS: Not only — not only do I apologize to Secretary Clinton — and I hope we can work together on an independent investigation from day one — I want to apologize to my supporters. This is not the type of campaign that we run.

And if I find anybody else involved in this, they will also be fired.

MUIR: Secretary Clinton, he has apologized. How do your react?

CLINTON: I very much appreciate that comment, Bernie. It really is important that we go forward on this.

I know that you now have your data back, and that there has been an agreement for an independent inquiry into what did happen.

Obviously, we were distressed when we learned of it, because we have worked very hard — I said in the beginning of this campaign, we want to reach as many voters as possible, and we have tens of thousands of volunteers doing that, and entering data all the time to keep up with what people are telling us.

And so, now that, I think, you know, we have resolved your data, we have agreed on an independent inquiry, we should move on. Because I don’t think the American people are all that interested in this.

(APPLAUSE)

I think they’re more interested in what we have to say about all the big issues facing us.

O’MALLEY: Yeah, David, look, for crying out loud, our country has been attacked, we have pressing issues involving how we’re going to adapt to this changing era of warfare.

Our economy — people are working harder and being left behind. You want to know why things don’t get done in Washington? Because for the last 24 hours, with those issues being so urgent to people as they tune in tonight, wondering how they’re even be able to buy presents for their kids.

Instead, we’re listening to the bickering back and forth. Maybe that is normal politics in Washington, but that is not the politics of higher purpose that people expect from our party.

We need to address our security issues, we need to address the economic issues around the kitchen table. And if people want a more high-minded politics and want to move our country forward, go on to martinomalley.com and help my campaign move our country forward.

(APPLAUSE)

MUIR (?): All three candidates are weighing in.

SANDERS: Let me agree with Governor O’Malley and let me agree with Secretary Clinton. You know, we had this incident before, Secretary, with your famous e-mails. Right?

And what I said and I think what Governor O’Malley is saying, and I hope you say, is when the middle class of this country is disappearing, when we have massive income and wealth inequality, when we’re the only major country on earth not guaranteeing health care to all people, all the issues that the governor talked about, the secretary talked about, those are the issues. Media notwithstanding.

Those are the issues that the American people want discussed. I hope those are the issues we’ll discuss.

MUIR: Good let’s move on — Senator Sanders, let’s move on right to some of those issues.

(APPLAUSE)

It is just six days before Christmas, as we all know in this country. It’s typically a joyful time, as it is this year, as well. But it’s also an anxious time. President Obama has acknowledged that what we saw in San Bernardino was an act of terrorism. But we remember the president said, right before Thanksgiving, there is no known specific and credible intelligence indicating a plot on the homeland.

We now know that this couple had assembled an arsenal. They were not on law enforcement’s radar. They were completely undetected. So as we approach another holiday, with the president again saying, late this week, no credible threat, Secretary Clinton, how confident should the American people be, that there aren’t others like that couple right now in the U.S. going undetected?

And what would you do as president to find them?

CLINTON: Well, first, the most important job of being president is obviously to keep our country safe and to keep the families of America safe.

I have a plan that I’ve put forward to go after ISIS. Not to contain them, but to defeat them. And it has three parts. First, to go after them and deprive them of the territory they occupy now in both Syria and Iraq.

CLINTON: Secondly, to go after and dismantle their global network of terrorism. And thirdly, to do more to keep us safe. Under each of those three parts of my plan, I have very specific recommendations about what to do.

Obviously, in the first, we do have to have a — an American-led air campaign, we have to have Arab and Kurdish troops on the ground. Secondly, we’ve got to go after everything from North Africa to South Asia and beyond.

And then, most importantly, here at home, I think there are three things that we have to get right. We have to do the best possible job of sharing intelligence and information. That now includes the internet, because we have seen that ISIS is a very effective recruiter, propagandist and inciter and celebrator of violence.

That means we have to work more closely with our great tech companies. They can’t see the government as an adversary, we can’t see them as obstructionists. We’ve got to figure out how we can do more to understand who is saying what and what they’re planning.

And we must work more closely with Muslim-American communities. Just like Martin, I met with a group of Muslim-Americans this past week to hear from them about what they’re doing to try to stop radicalization. They will be our early warning signal. That’s why we need to work with them, not demonize them, as the Republicans have been doing.

O’MALLEY: David, I am the very first…

MUIR: (inaudible) thank you.

(APPLAUSE)

I am the very first post-9/11 mayor and the very first post-9/11 governor. I understand, from the ground up, that when attacks like San Bernardino happen, when attacks like the attacks of 9/11 happen, that when people call 911, the first people to show up are the local first responders.

Many of the things Secretary Clinton said are absolutely true, but they underscore a lack of investment that we have, as a nation, failed to make over these last 15 years in intelligence gathering, intelligence analysis, intelligence sharing. Not only in theater, in Syria and Iraq and other places where we embalk (ph) ourselves in toppling dictators without having any idea what comes next, but here in the homeland, as we protect people from this threat of the lone wolves and these changing tactics and strategies.

I believe that what’s happened here is that the president had us on the right course, but it’s a lack of battle tempo. We have to increase the battle tempo, we have to bring a modern way of getting things done and forcing the sharing of information and do a much better job of acting on it in order to prevent these sorts of attacks in the future.

MUIR: And we’re going to break down these issues tonight, but I do want to go to Senator Sanders because the concern going into Christmas is significant, as you know. A new ABC News poll shows 77 percent of Americans have little or no confidence in the government’s ability to prevent a lone wolf attack. How would you specifically find would-be terrorist who are going undetected?

SANDERS: I’m one of the 77 percent. I think this is a very difficult issue. Let me agree with much of what the secretary and the governor have said. Let me tell you what I think we have got to do. I think it’s a two-pronged issue.

Number one, our goal is to crush and destroy ISIS. What is the best way to do it? Well, I think there are some differences of opinion here, perhaps between the secretary and myself. I voted against the war in Iraq because I thought unilateral military action would not produce the results that were necessary and would lead to the kind of unraveling and instability that we saw in the Middle East.

I do not believe in unilateral American action. I believe in action in which we put together a strong coalition of forces, major powers and the Muslim nations. I think one of the heroes in a real quagmire out there, in a dangerous and difficult world, one of the heroes who we should recognize in the Middle East is King Abdullah II of Jordan. This small country has welcomed in many refugees.

And Abdullah said something recently, very important. He said, “Yes, international terrorism is by definition an international issue, but it is primarily an issue of the Muslim nations who are fighting for the soul of Islam. We the Muslims should lead the effort on the ground.” And I believe he is absolutely right.

MUIR: Senator, thank you.

RADDATZ: Secretary Clinton, in the wake of the San Bernardino attack, you all emphasized gun control. But our latest poll shows that more Americans believe arming people, not stricter gun laws, is the best defense against terrorism. Are they wrong?

CLINTON: Well, I think you have to look at both the terrorism challenge that we face abroad and certainly at home and the role that guns play in delivering the violence that stalks us. Clearly, we have to have a very specific set of actions to take. You know, when Senator Sanders talks about a coalition, I agree with him about that. We’ve got to build a coalition abroad. We also have to build a coalition at home. Abroad, we need a coalition that is going to take on ISIS. I know how hard that is. I know it isn’t something you just hope people will do and I’ve worked on that…

RADDATZ: Secretary Clinton, can we stick to gun control?

CLINTON: Yes, I’m getting…

RADDATZ: Are they wrong?

CLINTON: … I’m getting to that. Because I think if you only think about the coalition abroad you’re missing the main point, which is we need a coalition here at home. Guns, in and of themselves, in my opinion, will not make Americans safer. We lose 33,000 people a year already to gun violence, arming more people to do what I think is not the appropriate response to terrorism.

I think what is…

(APPLAUSE)

Is creating much deeper, closer relations and, yes, coalitions within our own country. The first line of defense against radicalization is in Muslim-American community. People who we should be welcoming and working with.

I worry greatly that the rhetoric coming from the Republicans, particularly Donald Trump, is sending a message to Muslims here in the United States and literally around the world that there is a “clash of civilizations,” that there is some kind of Western plot or even “war against Islam,” which then I believe fans the flames of radicalization.

So guns have to be looked at as its own problem, but we also have to figure out how we’re going to deal with the radicalization here in the United States.

(CROSSTALK)

RADDATZ: Senator Sanders — wait just a moment, please, Governor O’Malley.

Senator Sanders, we’ve seen those long lines of people buying guns in record numbers after the Paris attacks. Would you discourage people from buying a gun?

SANDERS: It’s a country in which people choose to buy guns. I think half of the — more than half of the people in my own state of Vermont, my guess here in New Hampshire, are gun owners. That’s the right of people.

But this is what I do believe. I believe that when we have some 300 million guns in this country, I believe that when we have seen these horrific mass killings, not only in San Bernardino, but in Colorado and movie theaters in Colorado, I think we have got to bring together the vast majority of the people who do in fact believe in sensible gun safety regulations.

For example, talking about polls, a poll recently came out, overwhelming majority of the American people say we should strengthen the instant background check. Who denies that it is crazy…

(APPLAUSE)

Who denies that it is crazy to allow people to own guns who are criminals or are mentally unstable? We’ve got to eliminate the gun show loophole. In my view, we have got to see that weapons designed by the military to kill people are not in the hands of civilians.

I think there is a consensus.

(APPLAUSE)

I think — I’m not going to say that everybody is in agreement. It’s a divided country on guns. But there is a broad consensus on sensible gun safety regulations that I, coming from a state that has virtually no gun control, will do my best to bring together.

O’MALLEY: Martha, if I may…

RADDATZ: Thank you, Senator Sanders.

(CROSSTALK)

RADDATZ: I think we’re going to go on…

O’MALLEY: Excuse me, no.

MUIR: Governor, we have to abide the rules here, we’ll call on you here shortly, but…

O’MALLEY: I am the only person on this stage who has actually…

MUIR: But I do want pick up on something…

O’MALLEY: … passed comprehensive gun safety legislation with a ban on combat assault weapons, David.

And, look, there are profound differences…

(APPLAUSE)

O’MALLEY: Senator Sanders voted against the Brady Bill. Senator Sanders voted to give immunity to gun dealers. And Senator Sanders voted against even research dollars to look into this public health issue.

Secretary Clinton changes her position on this every election year, it seems, having one position in 2000 and then campaigning against President Obama and saying we don’t need federal standards.

Look, what we need on this issue is not more polls. We need more principle. When ISIL does training videos that say the easiest way to get a combat assault weapon in the United States of America is at a gun show, then we should all be waking up. We need comprehensive gun safety legislation and a ban on assault weapons.

RADDATZ: Governor, now — and let me stay with gun control for a minute, then. You talk about assault weapons. Even if you were able to ban the purchase of assault weapons tomorrow, Americans already own an estimated 7 to 10 million semi-automatic rifles.

Would you make it illegal to own those weapons, force people to turn them in? And if not, how would banning the sales really make a difference?

O’MALLEY: Because, Martha, it would prevent people like the guy that just got charged yesterday perhaps from being able to buy combat assault weapons. You know, we are the only nation, only developed nation on the planet…

RADDATZ: But, again, I’m not talking about buying. Would you have them confiscated? The ones that are already here?

O’MALLEY: No, Martha, I would not. And that’s not what we did in Maryland. But you know what we did in Maryland? We overcame the NRA’s objections. We overcame all of the crowds that were coming down there.

We did our own rallies. And at least if we enact these laws in a prospective way, we can address a major vulnerability in our country. ISIL videos, ISIL training videos are telling lone wolves the easiest way to buy a combat assault weapon in America is at a gun show.

And it’s because of the flip-flopping, political approach of Washington that both of my two colleagues on this stage have represented there for the last forty years.

SANDERS: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Let’s calm down a little bit, Martin.

CLINTON: Yes, let’s tell the truth, Martin.

O’MALLEY: I am telling the truth.

SANDERS: First of all, let’s have some rules here, commentators.

MUIR: We will.

(LAUGHTER)

SANDERS: All right.

MUIR: But let me just establish that for you, senator. Really quickly governor, we are going to call on you tonight and it’s very clear you have a lot to say but please wait until you’re called upon. And senator, he invoked your record and I’ll let you respond.

SANDERS: He sure did.

MUIR: I’ll let you respond.

CLINTON: He invoked mine as well.

MUIR: And you will get some to as well.

SANDERS: Sure did. All right. First off, we can do all the great speeches we want but you’re not going to succeed unless there is a consensus. In 1988, just to set the record straight governor, I ran for the U.S. House. We have one House member from Vermont, three candidates in the race. One candidate said, you know what, I don’t think it’s a great idea that we sell automatic weapons in this country that are used by the military to kill people very rapidly.

Gun people said, there were three candidates in the race, you vote for one of the others, but not Bernie Sanders. I lost that election by three percentage points. Quite likely, for that reason. So please, do not explain to me, coming from a state where democratic governors and republican governors have supported virtually no gun control.

(CROSSTALK)

Excuse me. Do not tell me that I have not shown courage in standing up to the gun people, in voting to ban assault weapons, voting for instant background checks, voting to end the gun show loop hole and now we’re in a position to create a consensus in America on gun safety.

(APPLAUSE)

MUIR: Senator, thank you. I want to move on here. Secretary Clinton, you brought up Donald Trump a short time ago.

CLINTON: I do and this is an important issue and I know we’ll get to a lot of other critical ones as well. I actually agree with Governor O’Malley about the need for common sense gun safety measures. And I applaud his record in Maryland. I just wish he wouldn’t misrepresent mine. I have been for the Brady bill, I have been against assault weapons.

I have voted not to give gun makers and sellers immunity. And I also know that — and I’m glad to see this — Senator Sanders has really moved in face of the facts about what we’re confronting in our country. I know that he has said in the two previous that he wants to take on this immunity issue because we need to send a strong message to the gun manufacturers, to the sellers, to the gun lobby.

And I would hope, Senator Sanders, that you would join the Democrats who are trying to close the Charleston loophole, that you would sponsor or co-sponsor legislation to remove the absolute immunity. We need to move on this consensus that exists in the country. It’s no longer enough just to say the vast majority of Americans want common sense gun safety measures including gun owners.

We need, and only the three of us will do this, nobody on the Republican side will even admit there’s a problem. And in whatever way the three of us can we need to move this agenda forward and begin to deal with the gun lobby and the intimidation that they present.

(APPLAUSE)

MUIR: Secretary Clinton, thank you. We’re going to move on from guns here and go back to something you mentioned a short time ago. You brought up Donald Trump first here this evening. We’ve now seen the polling done well after his proposed ban on Muslims coming to America. Thirty-six percent of Americans, more than a third, agree with him.

You have weighed in already on Donald Trump. You’ve weighed in on the proposed ban. But what would you say to the millions of Americans watching tonight who agree with him? Are they wrong?

CLINTON: Well I think a lot of people are understandably reacting out of fear and anxiety about what they’re seeing. First what they saw in Paris, now what they have seen in San Bernardino. And Mr. Trump has a great capacity to use bluster and bigotry to inflame people and to make think there are easy answers to very complex questions.

So what I would say is, number one, we need to be united against the threats that we face. We need to have everybody in our country focused on watching what happens and reporting it if it’s suspicious, reporting what you hear. Making sure that Muslim Americans don’t feel left out or marginalized at the very moment when we need their help.

CLINTON: You know, I was a senator from New York after 9/11, and we spent countless hours trying to figure out how to protect the city and the state from perhaps additional attacks. One of the best things that was done, and George W. Bush did this and I give him credit, was to reach out to Muslim Americans and say, we’re in this together. You are not our adversary, you are our partner.

And we also need to make sure that the really discriminatory messages that Trump is sending around the world don’t fall on receptive ears. He is becoming ISIS’s best recruiter. They are going to people showing videos of Donald Trump insulting Islam and Muslims in order to recruit more radical jihadists. So I want to explain why this is not in America’s interest to react with this kind of fear and respond to this sort of bigotry.

MUIR: Secretary, thank you.

Senator Sanders, I did want to ask you about a neighbor in San Bernardino who reportedly witnessed packages being delivered to that couple’s home, that it set off red flags, but they didn’t report it because they were afraid to profile. What would you say to Americans afraid to profile? Is it ever acceptable?

SANDERS: Well, the answer is, obviously, if you see suspicious activity, you report it. That’s kind of a no-brainer. You know, somebody is loading guns and ammunition into a house, I think it’s a good idea to call 911. Do it.

(LAUGHTER)

MUIR: But I’m asking about — I’m asking about profiling. Because a lot of people are afraid of that.

SANDERS: But I want to talk — I want to talk about something else, because Secretary Clinton I think made some interesting and good points. What you have now is a very dangerous moment in American history.

The secretary is right: Our people are fearful. They are anxious on a number of levels. They are anxious about international terrorism and the possibility of another attack on America. We all understand that.

But you know what else they’re anxious about? They’re anxious about the fact that they are working incredibly long hours, they’re worried about their kids, and they’re seeing all the new income and wealth — virtually all of it — going to the top 1 percent. And they’re looking around them, and they’re looking at Washington, and they’re saying the rich are getting much richer, I’m getting poorer, what are you going to do about it? What are you going to do for my kids?

And somebody like a Trump comes along and says, “I know the answers. The answer is that all of the Mexicans, they’re criminals and rapists, we’ve got to hate the Mexicans. Those are your enemies. We hate all the Muslims, because all of the Muslims are terrorists. We’ve got to hate the Muslims.” Meanwhile, the rich get richer.

So what I say to those people who go to Donald Trump’s rallies, understand: He thinks a low minimum wage in America is a good idea. He thinks low wages are a good idea.

I believe we stand together to address the real issues facing this country, not allow them to divide us by race or where we come from. Let’s create an America that works for all of us, not the handful on top.

(APPLAUSE)

MUIR: Senator, thank you.

RADDATZ: I want to move to another…

O’MALLEY: Martha, may I — Martha, may I…

(CROSSTALK)

RADDATZ: No, no, not yet, Governor O’Malley.

O’MALLEY: Can I share this quick story?

RADDATZ: No, not yet, Governor O’Malley.

O’MALLEY: Oh. All right.

RADDATZ: I’ll come to you when we call on you. Thank you very much.

O’MALLEY: When you come back to me, I’ll share that story.

RADDATZ: You’ll be happy. I’ll let — I’ll let you talk then.

Secretary Clinton, I want to talk about a new terrorist tool used in the Paris attacks, encryption. FBI Director James Comey says terrorists can hold secret communications which law enforcement cannot get to, even with a court order.

You’ve talked a lot about bringing tech leaders and government officials together, but Apple CEO Tim Cook said removing encryption tools from our products altogether would only hurt law-abiding citizens who rely on us to protect their data. So would you force him to give law enforcement a key to encrypted technology by making it law? CLINTON: I would not want to go to that point. I would hope that, given the extraordinary capacities that the tech community has and the legitimate needs and questions from law enforcement, that there could be a Manhattan-like project, something that would bring the government and the tech communities together to see they’re not adversaries, they’ve got to be partners.

It doesn’t do anybody any good if terrorists can move toward encrypted communication that no law enforcement agency can break into before or after. There must be some way. I don’t know enough about the technology, Martha, to be able to say what it is, but I have a lot of confidence in our tech experts.

And maybe the back door is the wrong door, and I understand what Apple and others are saying about that. But I also understand, when a law enforcement official charged with the responsibility of preventing attacks — to go back to our early questions, how do we prevent attacks — well, if we can’t know what someone is planning, we are going to have to rely on the neighbor or, you know, the member of the mosque or the teacher, somebody to see something.

CLINTON: I just think there’s got to be a way, and I would hope that our tech companies would work with government to figure that out. Otherwise, law enforcement is blind — blind before, blind during, and, unfortunately, in many instances, blind after.

So we always have to balance liberty and security, privacy and safety, but I know that law enforcement needs the tools to keep us safe. And that’s what i hope, there can be some understanding and cooperation to achieve.

RADDATZ: And Governor O’Malley, where do you draw the line between national security and personal security?

O’MALLEY: I believe that we should never give up our privacy; never should give up our freedoms in exchange for a promise of security. We need to figure this out together. We need a collaborative approach. We need new leadership.

The way that things work in the modern era is actually to gather people around the table and figure these things out. The federal government should have to get warrants. That’s not some sort of passe you know, antique sort of principle that safeguards our freedoms.

But at the same time with new technologies I believe that the people creating these projects — I mean these products also have an obligation to come together with law enforcement to figure these things out; true to our American principles and values.

My friend Kashif, who is a doctor in Maryland; back to this issue of our danger as a democracy of turning against ourselves. He was putting his 10 and 12-year-old boys to bed the other night. And he is a proud American Muslim. And one of his little boys said to him, “Dad, what happens if Donald Trump wins and we have to move out of our homes?” These are very, very real issues. this is a clear and present danger in our politics within.

We need to speak to what unites us as a people; freedom of worship, freedom of religion, freedom of expression. And we should never be convinced to give up those freedoms in exchange for a promise of greater security; especially from someone as untried and as incompetent as Donald Trump.

RADDATZ: Thank you, Governor O’Malley.

MUIR: Martha, we’re going to turn now to refugees coming to America. And on the subject of refugees, more than half of all Americans now say they oppose taking in refugees from Syria and across the Middle East.

Secretary Clinton, you have said that it would undermine who we are as Americans, shutting our doors. But New Hampshire’s governor, where we are right here tonight, a democrat and a supporter of yours, is among more than 30 governors who are now concerned. Governor Maggie Hassan says, “we should halt acceptance of Syrian refugees until U.S. authorities can assure the vetting process, halt Syrian refugees.” Is she wrong?

CLINTON: Well, I agree that we have to have the toughest screening and vetting…

MUIR: But a halt?

CLINTON: I don’t think a halt is necessary. What we have to do is put all of our resources through the Department of Homeland Security, through the State Department, through our intelligence agencies, and we have to have an increased vetting and screening. Now, this takes, David, 18 months to 24 months, two years.

So I know it’s not going to happen overnight and everything that can be done should be done. But the process should move forward while we are also taking on ISIS, putting together the kind of strategy that I’ve advocated for, and making sure that the vetting and the screening is as tough as possible. Because I do believe that we have a history and a tradition, that is part of our values system and we don’t want to sacrifice our values.

We don’t want to make it seem as though we are turning into a nation of fear instead of a nation of resolve. So I want us to have a very tough screening process but I want that process to go forward. And if at the end of 18 months, 24 months there are people who have been cleared, and I would prioritize widows, and orphans, and the elderly, people who may have relatives, families, or have nowhere else to go. I would prioritize them.

And that would I think give the American public a bit more of a sense of security about who is being processed and who might end up coming as refugees.

MUIR: Governor O’Malley, obviously you were governor yourself at one time. What would you say to New Hampshire’s governor tonight? Is she wrong on this?

O’MALLEY: No, what I would say is this is look, I was the first of the three of us to call for America to accept the 65,000 refugees we were asked to accept. And if this humanitarian crisis increases, we should accept more.

MUIR: So the idea of a halt or a pause?

(APPLAUSE)

O’MALLEY: David, there are wider vulnerabilities than when it comes to refugees. I met recently with some members of the Chaldean Christian communities and the wait times are a year, 18 months, 24 months. There is a pretty excruciating process that refugees go through. We need to invest more in terms of the other sort of visas and the other sort of waivers.

O’MALLEY: What these Chaldean families told me was that their families in Syria, when ISIS moves into their town, they actually paint a red cross across the door and mark their homes for demolition, and that tells the family you’d better get out now. The sort of genocide and brutality that the victims are suffering, these are not the perpetrators.

We need to be the nation whose enduring symbol is the Statue of Liberty, and we need to act like the great country we are, according to our values.

MUIR: Governor, thank you.

RADDATZ: Senator Sanders — Senator Sanders, we’re going to move on. We’re going to move on.

SANDERS: Excuse me. May I have a chance to respond to this issue?

RADDATZ: We’re going to move on to the fight against ISIS. You’re the one who told us we have to follow the rules and break it off.

(LAUGHTER)

SANDERS: Yeah, but the rule includes equal — got it. All right.

(LAUGHTER)

RADDATZ: OK. Let’s keep going. Thank you.

SANDERS: All right. Let’s keep going. OK.

RADDATZ: Thank you. I do want to move to the fight against ISIS.

SANDERS: Yeah.

RADDATZ: For the people of New Hampshire, the brutality of ISIS is personal. James Foley grew up here. The first hostage, a journalist, brutally executed last year. You’ve all said ISIS is a ruthless enemy and must be stopped. Al Qaida as well.

Senator Sanders, you voted to send U.S. ground forces to fight in the coalition to help destroy Al Qaida in Afghanistan. Can you then explain you why don’t support sending U.S. combat troops to join a coalition to fight ISIS?

SANDERS: And I also voted and helped lead the effort against the war in Iraq, which will go down in history as one of the worst foreign blunders — foreign policy blunders in the history of our country.

I voted against the first Gulf War, which set the stage, I believe, for the second Iraq war. And what I believe right now, and I believe this is terribly important, is the United States of America cannot succeed, or be thought of as the policeman of the world, that when there’s an international crisis all over the world, in France and in the U.K. Or — hey, just call up the American military and the American taxpayers, they’re going to send the troops.

And if they have to be in the Middle East for 20 or 30 years no problem.

RADDATZ: But why Al Qaida, why not ISIS?

SANDERS: I have a problem with that, Martha. What I believe has got to happen is there must be an international coalition, including Russia, a well-coordinated effort.

But I agree, as I mentioned a moment ago, with King Abdullah. This is a war for the soul of Islam. The troops on the ground should not be American troops. They should be Muslim troops. I believe that countries like Saudi Arabia and Qatar have got to step up to the plate, have got to contribute the money that we need, and the troops that we need, to destroy ISIS with American support.

RADDATZ: The administration has tried that over and over again. If it doesn’t work and this threat is so great, what’s your plan B?

SANDERS: My plan is to make it work, to tell Saudi Arabia that instead of going to war in Yemen, they, one of the wealthiest countries on Earth, are going to have to go to war against ISIS.

To tell Qatar, that instead of spending $200 billion on the World Cup, maybe they should pay attention to ISIS, which is at their doorstep.

(APPLAUSE)

RADDATZ: Secretary Clinton, you too have ruled out a large U.S. combat force, yet you support sending in special operations forces to Syria, and sending those 100 to 200 troops to Iraq to do exploitation kill raids.

We’ve already lost one Delta Force member in a raid. It has looked very much to me like we’re already in ground combat on frequent trips I’ve made there.

So, are you fooling Americans when you say, we’re not putting American combat troops back into Syria or Iraq?

CLINTON: No. Not at all. I think that what we’re facing with ISIS is especially complicated. It was a different situation in Afghanistan. We were attacked from Afghanistan. Al Qaida was based in Afghanistan. We went after those who had attacked us.

What’s happening in Syria and Iraq is that, because of the failures in the region, including the failure of the prior government in Baghdad, led by Maliki, there has been a resurgence of Sunni activities, as exemplified by ISIS. And we have to support Sunni-Arab and Kurdish forces against ISIS, because I believe it would be not only a strategic mistake for the United States to put ground combat troops in, as opposed to special operators, as opposed to trainers, because that is exactly what ISIS wants.

They’ve advertised that. They want American troops back in the Middle East. They want American soldiers on the ground fighting them, giving them many more targets, and giving them a great recruiting opportunity.

CLINTON: So, I think it’s absolutely wrong policy for us to be even imagining we’re going end up putting tens of thousands of American troops into Syria and Iraq to fight ISIS.

And we do have to form a coalition. I know how hard that is. I have formed them. I put together a coalition, including Arabs, with respect to Libya and a coalition to put sanctions onto Iran. And you have to really work hard at it.

And the final thing I would say, bringing Donald Trump back into it, if you’re going to put together a coalition in the region to take on the threat of ISIS you don’t want to alienate the very countries and people you need to be part of the coalition. And so that is part of the reason why this is so difficult.

(APPLAUSE)

RADDATZ: Secretary Clinton, I want — I want to follow up on that. You do support sending special operations forces there. You support what the president has done already. One of the lessons people draw from Vietnam and war since is that a little force can turn into a little more and a little more. President Obama certainly didn’t expect to be sending 30,000 additional troops into Afghanistan the first year of his presidency.

Are you prepared to run the risk of a bigger war to achieve your goals to destroy ISIS, or are you prepared to give up on those goals if it requires a larger force?

CLINTON: Well, I just think you’re asking a question with a false choice. I believe if we lead an air coalition, which we are now in the position of doing and intensify it, if we continue to build back up the Iraqi army, which has had some recent success in Ramadi, as you know, if we get back talking to the tribal sheiks in Anbar to try to rebuild those relationships, which were very successful, in going after Al Qaida in Iraq, if we get the Turks to pay more attention to ISIS than they’re paying to the Kurds, if we do put together the kind of coalition with the specific tasks that I am outlining, I think we can be successful in destroying ISIS.

So that’s what I’m focused on, that’s what I’ve outlined and that’s what I would do as president.

RADDATZ: Governor O’Malley.

(APPLAUSE) You’ve emphasized the need for more human intelligence on the ground. What is it our intelligence community is not doing now that needs to be done?

O’MALLEY: Well, we have invested nowhere near what we should be investing in human intelligence on the ground. And what I’m talking about is not only the covert CIA intelligence, I’m also talking about diplomatic intelligence. I mean, we’ve seen time and time again, especially in this very troubled region of nation-state failures, and then we have no idea who the next generation of leaders are that are coming forward.

So what I would say is not only do we need to be thinking in military terms, but we do our military a disservice when we don’t greatly dial up the investment that we are making in diplomacy and human intelligence and when we fail to dial up properly, the role of sustainable development in all of this. As president, I would make the administrator of USAID an actual cabinet member. We have to act in a much more whole of government approach, as General Dempsey said.

And I do believe, and I would disagree somewhat with one of my colleagues, this is a genocidal threat. They have now created a safe haven in the vacuum that we allowed to be partly and because of our blunders, to be created to be created in the areas of Syria and Iraq. We cannot allow safe havens, and as a leader of moral nations around this Earth, we need to come up with new alliances and new ways to prepare for these new sorts of threats, because Martha, this will not be the last region where nation-states fail.

And you’ve seen a little bit of this emerging in the — in the African Union and the things that they have done to better stabilize Somalia. We need to pay attention here in Central America as well. So this is the new type of threats that we’re facing and we need to lead as a nation in confronting it and putting together new alliances and new coalitions.

CLINTON: Well, I just want to quickly add…

RADDATZ: Thank you.

CLINTON: Martha, that — you know, one of the reasons why I have advocated for a no-fly zone is in order to create those safe refuges within Syria, to try to protect people on the ground both from Assad’s forces, who are continuing to drop barrel bombs, and from ISIS. And of course, it has to be de-conflicted with the Russians, who are also flying in that space.

I’m hoping that because of the very recent announcement of the agreement at the Security Council, which embodies actually an agreement that I negotiated back in Geneva in June of 2012, we’re going to get a diplomatic effort in Syria to begin to try to make a transition. A no-fly zone would prevent the outflow of refugees and give us a chance to have some safe spaces.

RADDATZ: Secretary Clinton, I’d like to go back to that if I could. ISIS doesn’t have aircraft, Al Qaida doesn’t have aircraft. So would you shoot down a Syrian military aircraft or a Russian airplane?

CLINTON: I do not think it would come to that. We are already de-conflicting air space. We know…

RADDATZ: But isn’t that a decision you should make now, whether…

CLINTON: No, I don’t think so. I am advocating…

RADDATZ: … if you’re advocating this?

CLINTON: I am advocating the no-fly zone both because I think it would help us on the ground to protect Syrians; I’m also advocating it because I think it gives us some leverage in our conversations with Russia.

Now that Russia has joined us in the Security Council, has adopted an agreement that we hashed out a long day in Geneva three years ago, now I think we can have those conversations. The no-fly zone, I would hope, would be also shared by Russia. If they will begin to turn their military attention away from going after the adversaries of Assad toward ISIS and put the Assad future on the political and diplomatic track, where it belongs.

(CROSSTALK)

MUIR: I want to take this to Senator — I’m going to take this to Senator Sanders next, because I think there…

(CROSSTALK)

SANDERS: I have a difference of opinion with Secretary Clinton on this. Our differences are fairly deep on this issue. We disagreed on the war in Iraq. We both listened to the information from Bush and Cheney. I voted against the war.

But I think — and I say this with due respect — that I worry too much that Secretary Clinton is too much into regime change and a little bit too aggressive without knowing what the unintended consequences might be.

Yes, we could get rid of Saddam Hussein, but that destabilized the entire region. Yes, we could get rid of Gadhafi, a terrible dictator, but that created a vacuum for ISIS. Yes, we could get rid of Assad tomorrow, but that would create another political vacuum that would benefit ISIS. So I think, yeah, regime change is easy, getting rid of dictators is easy. But before you do that, you’ve got to think about what happens the day after. And in my view, what we need to do is put together broad coalitions to understand that we’re not going to have a political vacuum filled by terrorists, that, in fact, we are going to move steadily — and maybe slowly — toward democratic societies, in terms of Assad, a terrible dictator. But I think in Syria the primary focus now must be on destroying ISIS and working over the years to get rid of Assad. That’s the secondary issue.

CLINTON: That is exactly…

MUIR: Senator, thank you.

CLINTON: That is exactly what I just said and what I just described.

MUIR: Yeah, but, Secretary Clinton — Secretary Clinton…

CLINTON: And that is important, because now we have a U.N. Security Council that will enable us to do that. And, you know, with all due respect, Senator, you voted for regime change with respect to Libya. You joined the Senate in voting to get rid of Gadhafi, and you asked that there be a Security Council validation of that with a resolution.

All of these are very difficult issues. I know that; I’ve been dealing with them for a long time. And, of course, we have to continue to do what is necessary when someone like Gadhafi, a despot with American blood on his hands, is overturned. But I’ll tell you what would have happened, if we had not joined with our European partners and our Arab partners to assist the people in Libya, you would be looking at Syria. Now the Libyans are turning their attention to try to dislodge ISIS from its foothold and begin to try to move together to have a unified nation.

SANDERS: I was not the secretary of state…

MUIR: Senator Sanders, Senator Sanders, hold on. One moment, please. I’m going to ask the secretary here, because there does appear to be some daylight here between the policies, at least in respect to when you take out Syrian President Bashar al-Assad. Right now or do you wait? Do you tackle ISIS first?

You have said, Secretary Clinton, that you come to the conclusion that we have to proceed on both fronts at once. We heard from the senator just this week that we must put aside the issue of how quickly we get rid of Assad and come together with countries, including Russia and Iran, to destroy ISIS first. Is he wrong?

CLINTON: I think we’re missing the point here. We are doing both at the same time.

MUIR: But that’s what he’s saying, we should put that aside for now and go after ISIS. CLINTON: Well, I don’t agree with that, because we will not get the support on the ground in Syria to dislodge ISIS if the fighters there who are not associated with ISIS, but whose principal goal is getting rid of Assad, don’t believe there is a political, diplomatic channel that is ongoing. We now have that. We have the U.N. Security Council adopting a resolution that lays out a transition path. It’s very important we operate on both at the same time.

And let me just say a word about coalition-building, because I’ve heard Senator Sanders say this. I know how hard it is to build coalitions. I think it would be a grave mistake to ask for any more Iranian troops inside Syria. That is like asking the arsonist to come and pour more gas on the fire.

The Iranians getting more of a presence in Syria, linking with Hezbollah, their proxy in Lebanon, would threaten Israel and would make it more difficult for us to move on a path to have a transition that at some point would deal with Assad’s future.

(CROSSTALK)

SANDERS: I happen to think…

O’MALLEY: I’d like to offer a…

(APPLAUSE)

MUIR: She says we have to proceed on both fronts at once.

SANDERS: Secretary Clinton is right. This is a complicated issue. I don’t think anyone has a magical solution.

But this is what I do believe. Yes, of course Assad is a terrible dictator. But I think we have got to get our foreign policies and priorities right. The immediate — it is not Assad who is attacking the United States. It is ISIS. And ISIS is attacking France and attacking Russian airliners.

The major priority, right now, in terms of our foreign and military policy should be the destruction of ISIS.

(APPLAUSE)

And I think — and I think we bring together that broad coalition, including Russia, to help us destroy ISIS. And work on a timetable to get rid of Assad, hopefully through Democratic elections. First priority, destroy ISIS.

MUIR: Senator sanders, thank you.

O’MALLEY: May I offer a different generation’s perspective on this?

MUIR: Governor O’Malley?

O’MALLEY: During the Cold War — during the Cold War, we got into a bad habit of always looking to see who was wearing the jersey of the communists, and who was wearing the U.S. jersey. We got into a bad habit of creating big bureaucracies, old methodologies, to undermine regimes that were not friendly to the United States. Look what we did in Iran with Mosaddegh. And look at the results that we’re still dealing with because of that. I would suggest to you that we need to leave the Cold War behind us, and we need to put together new alliances and new approaches to dealing with this, and we need to restrain ourselves.

I mean, I know Secretary Clinton was gleeful when Gadhafi was torn apart. And the world, no doubt is a better place without him. But look, we didn’t know what was happening next. And we fell into the same trap with Assad, saying — as if it’s our job to say, Assad must go.

We have a role to play in this world. But we need to leave the Cold War and that sort of antiquated thinking behind.

MUIR: But — you criticized — you criticized Secretary Clinton for what came next. What’s your proposal for what comes after Assad?

O’MALLEY: I believe that we need to focus on destroying ISIL. That is the clear and present danger. And I believe that we can springboard off of this new U.N. resolution, and we should create, as Secretary Clinton indicated, and I agree with that, that there should be a political process.

But we shouldn’t be the ones declaring that Assad must go. Where did it ever say in the Constitution, where is it written that it’s the job of the United States of America or its secretary of State to determine when dictators have to go?

We have a role to play in this world. But it is not the world — the role of traveling the world looking for new monsters to destroy.

(CROSSTALK)

SANDERS: David…

CLINTON: Since he has been making all kinds of comments.

(LAUGHTER)

I think it’s fair to say, Assad has killed, by last count, about 250,000 Syrians. The reason we are in the mess we’re in, that ISIS has the territory it has, is because of Assad.

I advocated arming the moderate opposition back in the day when I was still secretary of State, because I worried we would end up exactly where we are now.

And so, when we look at these complex problems, I wish it could be either/or. I wish we could say yes, let’s go destroy ISIS and let’s let Assad continue to destroy Syria, which creates more terrorists, more extremists by the minute.

No. We now finally are where we need to be. We have a strategy and a commitment to go after ISIS, which is a danger to us as well as the region… SANDERS (?): Secretary…

CLINTON: And we finally have a U.N. Security Council Resolution bringing the world together to go after a political transition in Syria.

SANDERS: Could I just say — just say this…

CLINTON: If the United States does not lead, there is not another leader. There is a vacuum.

SANDERS: Can I just say this…

CLINTON: And we have to lead, if we’re going to be successful.

(APPLAUSE)

MUIR: Senator Sanders, please. Go ahead.

Senator Sanders, a last word on this.

SANDERS: Of course the United States must lead. But the United States is not the policeman of the world. The United States must not be involved in perpetual warfare in the Middle East. The United States, at the same time, cannot successfully fight Assad and ISIS.

ISIS, now, is the major priority. Let’s get rid of Assad later. Let’s have a Democratic Syria. But the first task is to bring countries together to destroy ISIS.

MUIR: Senator Sanders, thank you. When we come back here tonight, the other major issues of this election: jobs, the economy, health care.

Which candidates will make the best case for the middle class, as our coverage of the Democratic debate, here in New Hampshire, continues right after this on ABC.

ANNOUNCER: ABC News coverage of the New Hampshire Democratic debate will continue in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MUIR: Welcome back tonight. As you can see, we have a packed audience here in New Hampshire and we’re going to continue. We’ve already had a spirited conversation here at the top of the broadcast about ISIS, about the concerns of terror here on the homefront and as we await Secretary Clinton backstage, we’re going to begin on the economy.

We want to turn to the American jobs, wages and raises in this country. And we believe Secretary Clinton will be coming around the corner any minute. But in the mean time we want to start with this eye-opening number. And Senator Sanders, this question goes to you first, anyway.

In 1995, the median American household income was $52,600 in today’s money. This year, it’s $53,600. That’s 20 more years on the job with just a 2 percent raise. In a similar time-frame, raises for CEOs went up more than 200 percent.

(APPLAUSE)

CLINTON: Sorry.

MUIR: We’re going to continue here, and Secretary, you’ll get a chance on this too.

But as I pointed out the CEO pay, 200 percent of their time — for that family of just 2 percent. You’ve all said, “you would raise the minimum wage.” But Senator Sanders what else – speak to that household tonight. 20 years, just a 2 percent raise, how as president would you get them a raise right away?

SANDERS: First of all, we recognize that we have a rigged economy, as you’ve indicated. Middle class in this country for the last 40 years has been disappearing; are we better of today then we were when Bush left office? Absolutely. But as you’ve indicated for millions of American workers, people in New Hampshire — all over America, they’re working longer hours for lower wages deeply worried about their kids. So what do we do?

First statement is, we tell the billionaire class, “they cannot have it all.” For a start, they’re going to start to pay their fair share of taxes. Second of all what we do, is you raise the minimum wage to living wage, 15 bucks an hour over the next several years. Next thing we do, pay equity for women workers. Women should not be making 79 cents on the dollar compared to that.

Next thing that we do, real unemployment — official unemployment, 5 percent, real employment 10 percent, youth unemployment, off the charts. We rebuild our crumbling infrastructure, our roads our bridges, our rail systems, we create 13 million jobs with a trillion-dollar investment.

Furthermore, in a competitive global economy, it is imperative that we have the best educated workforce in the world. That is why I’m going to have a tax on Wall Street speculation to make certain that public colleges and universities in America are tuition free.

MUIR: Senator Sanders, thank you.

Governor O’Malley, what would propose that would be different, how would you get the middle class a raise and without waiting another 20 years for another 2 percent.

O’MALLEY: Look these are the things that we did in own state through the recession. We actually passed a living wage. We raised the minimum wage. We actually raised it to the highest goals of any state in the nation also in minority and women participant goals because we understood that the way you reinvigorate and make fair market American capitalism work, is to make the choices and the investments that include more people more full in the economic success of your state.

All through the recession, we defended the highest median income in America and the second highest median income for African American families. How? By actually doing more for education. We increased education funding by 37 percent.

We were the only state in American that went four years in a row without a penny increase in college tuition. We invested more in our infrastructure and we squared our shoulders to the great business opportunity of this era and that is moving our economy to a 100 percent clean electric energy future. We created 2,000 new jobs in the solar industry and we fought every single day to adopt more inclusive economic practices.

O’MALLEY: So David, the conclusion of all of those things is this; they weren’t hopes, they weren’t dreams, they weren’t amorphous goals out there. We actually took action to do these things and as president, I have put forward 15 strategic goals that will make wages go up again for all American families. Universal national service is an option for every kid in America to cut youth employment.

And I’m the only candidate on this stage to put forward a new agenda for America’s cities so we can employ more people in the heart of great American cities and get them back to work.

MUIR: Governor, thank you. Secretary Clinton…

(APPLAUSE)

As you were walking in, I was talking about the median American household getting a two percent raise over the last 20 years, that CEO pay in that same time frame has gone up 200 percent. So for those families watching tonight, how do you get them a raise if you’re president?

CLINTON: Well, I’ve been talking to a lot of these families, and this is such an outrage, both because it’s bad for our economy, we’re a 70 percent consumption economy, people need to feel optimistic and confident, they need to believe their hard work is going to be rewarded, and it’s bad for our democracy. It’s absolutely the case that if people feel that the game is rigged, that has consequences.

I think it’s great standing up here with the senator and the governor talking about these issues, because you’re not going to hear anything like this from any of the Republicans who are running for president.

(APPLAUSE)

They don’t want to raise the minimum wage, they don’t want to do anything to increase incomes. At the center of my economic policy is raising incomes, because people haven’t been able to get ahead, and the cost of everything, from college tuition to prescription drugs, has gone up.

Of course we have to raise the minimum wage. Of course we have to do more to incentivize profit sharing, like we see with Market Basket right here in New Hampshire and New England, where all of the employees get a chance to share in the profits.

(APPLAUSE)

And we’ve got to do more on equal pay for equal work. That means pass the Paycheck Fairness Act so we have transparency about how much people are making. That’s the way to get women’s wages up, and that’s good for them and good for their families and good for our communities.

(APPLAUSE)

And there is a lot we can do in college affordability. I have debt-free tuition plans, free community college plans, getting student debt down. I also am very committed to getting the price of drugs down. And there’s a lot. You can go to my website…

MUIR: Secretary…

CLINTON: … hillaryclinton.com, and read about it. But I guess the final thing that — that I would say is this is the kind of debate we need to take to the Republicans in the fall.

MUIR: Secretary, thank you.

(APPLAUSE)

CLINTON: This is the election…

MUIR: We’re going to — we’re going to…

CLINTON: … issues they have to respond to.

MUIR: And we’re going to talk about college education in a moment. But Secretary Clinton, I did want to ask you, the last time you ran for president, Fortune Magazine put you on its cover with the headline Business Loves Hillary, pointing out your support for many CEOs in corporate America. I’m curious, eight years later, should corporate America love Hillary Clinton?

CLINTON: Everybody should.

(LAUGHTER)

(APPLAUSE)

Look, I have said I want to be the president for the struggling, the striving and the successful. I want to make sure the wealthy pay their fair share, which they have not been doing. I want the Buffett Rule to be in effect, where millionaires have to pay 30 percent tax rates instead of 10 percent to nothing in some cases. I want to make sure we rein in the excessive use of political power to feather the nest and support the super wealthy.

But I also want to create jobs and I want to be a partner with the private sector. I’m particularly keen on creating jobs in small business. My dad was a small businessman, a really small business. I want to do more to help incentivize and create more small businesses. So if — if people who are in the private sector know what I stand for, it’s what I fought for as a senator, it’s what I will do as president, and they want to be part of once again building our economy so it works for everybody, more power to them, because they are the kind of business leaders who understand that if we don’t get the American economy moving and growing, we’re not going to recognize our country and we’re not going to give our kids the same opportunities that we had.

MUIR: Secretary, thank you. Senator Sanders…

(APPLAUSE)

I want to stay on this and ask you how big a role does corporate America play in a healthy economy and will corporate America love a President Sanders?

SANDERS: No, I think they won’t.

(LAUGHTER)

(APPLAUSE)

So Hillary and I have a difference. The CEOs of large multinationals may like Hillary. They ain’t going to like me and Wall Street is going to like me even less.

(APPLAUSE)

And the reason for that is we’ve got to deal with the elephant in the room, which is the greed, recklessness and illegal behavior on Wall Street. When you have six financial institutions in this country that issue two-thirds of the credit cards and one-third of the mortgages, when three out of four of them are larger today than when we bailed them out because they are too big to fail, we’ve got to re- establish Glass-Steagall, we have got to break the large financial institutions up.

SANDERS: So I don’t think…

(APPLAUSE)

… having said that, I don’t think I’m going to get a whole lot of campaign contributions from Wall Street. I don’t have a super PAC. I don’t want campaign contributions from corporate America.

And let me be clear: While there are some great corporations creating jobs and trying to do the right thing, in my view — and I say this very seriously — the greed of the billionaire class, the greed of Wall Street is destroying this economy and is destroying the lives of millions of Americans. We need an economy that works for the middle class, not just a handful of billionaires, and I will fight and lead to make that happen.

MUIR: Senator, thank you. I want to…

(APPLAUSE)

(CROSSTALK)

MUIR: Governor, let me just ask you, though, because it is an important question, how important a role do you think corporate America plays in a healthy economy here in the U.S.?

O’MALLEY: Look, I look at our economy as an ecosystem. And the fact of the matter is that the more fully people participate, the more our workers earn, the more they will spend, the more our economy will grow. And most heads of businesses — large, medium and small — understand that.

But there is a better way forward than either of those offered by my two opponents here on this stage. We’re not going to fix what ails our economy, we’re not going to make wages go up for everyone by either trying to replace American capitalism with socialism — which, by the way, the rest of the world is moving away from — nor will we fix it by submitting to sort of Wall Street-directed crony capitalism.

And for my part, I have demonstrated the ability to have the backbone to take on Wall Street in ways that Secretary Clinton never, ever has. In fact, in the last debate, very shamefully, she tried to hide her cozy relationship with Wall Street big banks by invoking the attacks of 9/11.

I believe that the way forward for our country is to actually reinvigorate our antitrust department with the directive to promote fair competition. There’s mergers that are happening in every aspect of our country that is bad for competition and it’s bad for — for upward mobility of wages.

And the worst type of concentration, Secretary Clinton, is the concentration of the big banks, the big six banks that you went to and spoke to and told them, oh, you weren’t responsible for the crash, not by a long shot.

And that’s why today you still cannot support, as I do, breaking up the big banks and making sure that we pass a modern-day Glass- Steagall, like we had in late 1999, before it was repealed and led to the crash, where so many millions of families lost their jobs and their homes. And I was on the front lines of that, looking into the eyes of my neighbors…

CLINTON: OK…

MUIR: Governor O’Malley, thank you.

(CROSSTALK)

MUIR: I do want to ask you, Secretary Clinton. Let me just ask you…

CLINTON: Let me respond…

MUIR: We did — we did — Secretary Clinton, let me just ask you…

(CROSSTALK)

CLINTON: Under the rules, I have been — I have been invoked, David, so let me respond very quickly. Number one…

MUIR: And in particular…

(CROSSTALK)

CLINTON: Number one, there are currently two hedge fund billionaires running ads against me here in New Hampshire. They started in Iowa. Now, you’d have to ask yourself, why are they running ads against me? And the answer is: Because they know I will go right after them, that I will not let their agenda be America’s agenda.

Secondly, I think it’s important to point out that about 3 percent of my donations come from people in the finance and investment world. You can go to opensecrets.org and check that. I have more donations from students and teachers than I do from people associated with Wall Street.

(APPLAUSE)

Now, number three — and let me say this — when Governor O’Malley was heading the Democratic Governors Association, he had no trouble at all going to Wall Street to raise money to run campaigns for Democratic governors. And he also had no trouble appointing an investment banker to be in charge of his consumer protection bureau when he was governor.

So, you know, again, the difference between us and the Republicans is night and day. And there is only one person on this stage who voted to take away authority from the SEC and the Commodities Future Trading Commission that they could no longer regulate what are called swaps and derivatives, which actually contributed to the collapse of Lehman Brothers, and that was Senator Sanders.

So if we’re going to be talking like this, we can — and maybe we can score some political points — but the fact is: Every one of us stands for the kind of economy that will work better for every American. And if that means taking on Wall Street, I have a plan that is tough and comprehensive and praised by a lot of folks who say it goes further than what both Senator Sanders and Governor O’Malley are proposing.

SANDERS: Let me just — let me just…

MUIR: Secretary Clinton, thank you.

SANDERS: Let me just jump in. My name was invoked.

MUIR: Senator?

SANDERS: So with that invocation, let me say a few words.

(LAUGHTER)

Secretary Clinton, I don’t have a super PAC. I don’t get any money from Wall Street. You have gotten a whole lot of money over the years from Wall Street. But most importantly, when you look at what happened in the 1990s, go to berniesanders.com. I’ll advertise my Web site as well.

(LAUGHTER)

And what you’ll find is that I led — helped lead the effort as a member of the House financial committee against Alan Greenspan, against a guy named Bill Clinton, maybe you know him, maybe you don’t.

(LAUGHTER)

Against the Republican leadership, who all thought it would be a great idea to merge investor banks and commercial banks and large insurance companies. What a brilliant idea that would be.

Go to YouTube. Find out what I said to Greenspan. At the end of the day, if Teddy Roosevelt were alive today, and the governor makes a good point about trade, anti-trade, anti-monopoly activities.

Wall Street today has too much political power. It has too much economic power. To get deregulated — listen to this, they spent $5 billion in lobbying and campaign contributions over a 10-year period.

MUIR: Senator Sanders…

SANDERS: Wall Street is a threat to the economy. They’ve got to be broken up.

(APPLAUSE)

MUIR: Thank you, Senator. RADDATZ: And we’re going to move on to health care.

Secretary Clinton, the Department of Health and Human Services says more than 17 million Americans who are not insured now have health coverage because of Obamacare. But for Americans who already had health insurance the cost has gone up 27 percent in the last five years while deductibles are up 67 percent, health care costs are rising faster than many Americans can manage.

What’s broken in Obamacare that needs to be fixed right now? And what would you do to fix it?

CLINTON: Well, I would certainly build on the successes of the Affordable Care Act and work to fix some of the glitches that you just referenced.

Number one, we do have more people who have access to health care. We have ended the terrible situation that people with pre- existing conditions were faced with where they couldn’t find at any affordable price health care.

Women are not charged more than men any longer for our health insurance. And we keep young people on our policies until they turn 26.

(APPLAUSE)

Those are all really positive developments. But out-of-pocket costs have gone up too much and prescription drug costs have gone through the roof. And so what I have proposed, number one, is a $5,000 tax credit to help people who have very large out-of-pocket costs be able to afford those.

Number two, I want Medicare to be able to negotiate for lower drug prices just like they negotiate with other countries’ health systems.

(APPLAUSE)

We end up paying the highest prices in the world. And I want us to be absolutely clear about making sure the insurance companies in the private employer policy arena as well as in the Affordable Care exchanges are properly regulated so that we are not being gamed.

And I think that’s an important point to make because I’m going through and analyzing the points you were making, Martha. We don’t have enough competition and we don’t have enough oversight of what the insurance companies are charging everybody right now.

(CROSSTALK)

RADDATZ: But you did say those were glitches.

CLINTON: Yes.

RADDATZ: Just glitches?

CLINTON: Well, they’re glitches because…

RADDATZ: Twenty-seven percent in the last five years, deductibles up 67 percent?

CLINTON: It is. Because part of this is the startup challenges that this system is facing. We have fought, as Democrats, for decades to get a health care plan. I know. I’ve got the scars to show from the effort back in the early ’90s.

We want to build on it and fix it. And I’m confident we can do that. And it will have effects in the private market. And one of the reasons in some states why the percentage cost has gone up so much is because governors there would not extend Medicaid.

And so people are still going to get health care, thankfully, in emergency rooms, in hospitals. Those costs are then added to the overall cost, which does increase the insurance premiums for people in the private system.

(CROSSTALK)

RADDATZ: Senator Sanders, I want you to respond to what she was saying, but you’re instead calling for single-payer health care.

SANDERS: Yes, exactly, exactly.

RADDATZ: You note people won’t have to pay deductibles or premiums but they will have to pay new taxes. Can you tell us specifically how much people will be expected to pay?

SANDERS: Yes, well, roughly. Let me say this. As a member of the Health Education Committee that helped write the Affordable Care Act, much of what Secretary Clinton said about what we have done, among other things, ending the obscenity of this pre-existing situation is a step forward.

Seventeen more million more people have health care. It is a step forward. A step forward.

But this is what we also have to say. Not only are deductibles rising, 29 million Americans still have no health insurance and millions of people can’t afford to go to the doctor. Major crisis and primary health care. Here is the bottom line. Why is it that the United States of America today is the only major country on earth that does not guarantee health care to all people as a right?

Why is it…

(APPLAUSE)

SANDERS: Why is it that we are — why is it that we spend almost three times per capita as to what they spend in the U.K., 50 percent more than what they pay in France, countries that guarantee health care to all of their people and in many cases, have better health care outcomes. Bottom line.

This ties into campaign finance reform. The insurance companies, the drug companies are bribing the United States Congress. We need to pass a Medicare for all single payer system. It will lower the cost of health care for a middle-class family by thousands of dollars a year.

RADDATZ: Senator Sanders, you didn’t really tell us specifically how much people will be expected to pay…

SANDERS: But they will not be paying, Martha, any private insurance. So it’s unfair to say in total…

RADDATZ: But you can’t tell us this specifically, even if you were…

SANDERS: I can tell you that adding up the fact you’re not paying any private insurance, businesses are not paying any private insurance. The average middle-class family will be saving thousands of dollars a year. RADDATZ: OK. Let’s go to talk about the high cost of college education and for that we turn to the executive director of the New Hampshire Institute of Politics, right here at Saint Anselm college, Neil Levesque.

Neil?

LEVESQUE: Here to New Hampshire again. As you know, this auditorium is filled with many Saint Anselm college students. They know the outstanding student debt right now in America is $1.3 trillion. That private education costs have gone up in the last decade 26 percent, and 40 percent for public education.

So knowing that, we know you want to make public education more affordable but how do you really lower the cost? Senator Sanders, you mentioned a few minutes ago that you want free tuition for public colleges.

SANDERS: And universities.

LEVESQUE: How does that really lower the cost other than just shifting the cost to taxpayers?

SANDERS: Well, Neil, I think we’ve got to work on a two-pronged approach. And your point is absolutely well taken. The cost of college education is escalating a lot faster than the cost of inflation. There are a lot of factors involved in that.

And that is that we have some colleges and universities that are spending a huge amount of money on fancy dormitories and on giant football stadiums. Maybe we should focus on quality education with well-paid faculty members. But…

(APPLAUSE)

SANDERS: And I understand in many universities a heck of a lot of vice presidents who earn a big salary. But, bottom line is this is the year 2015. If we are going to be competitive in the global economy we need the best educated workforce.

It is insane to my mind, hundreds of thousands of young people today, bright qualified people, cannot go to college because they cannot afford — their families cannot afford to send them. Millions coming out of school as you indicated, deeply in debt. What do we do?

My proposal is to put a speculation tax on wall street, raise very substantial sums of money, not only make public colleges and universities tuition-free, but also substantially lower interest rates on student debt. You have families out there paying 6 percent, 8 percent, 10 percent on student debt, refinance their homes at 3 percent.

What sense is that? So I think we need radical changes in the funding of higher education. We should look at college today the way high school was looked at 60 years ago. All young people who have the ability should be able to get a college education. (APPLAUSE)

LEVESQUE: Governor O’Malley, how do you propose — Governor O’Malley, how do you propose lowering some of these costs associated with higher education?

O’MALLEY: Yes, this one falls under the category of, I have actually done this. As a governor we actually made the greater investments so that we could go four years in a row without a penny’s increase to college tuition.

My plan actually goes further than Senator Sanders because a big chunk of the cost is actually room and board and books and fees. So as a nation we need to increase what we invest in Pell grants. Yes, we need to make it easier for parents to refinance.

O’MALLEY: But states need to do more as well. And I propose a block grant program that will keep the states in the game as well. I believe that all of our kids should go into an income-based repayment plan.

I’m joined tonight by two daughters, Tara and Grace. My oldest daughter’s a teacher. Man (ph), their mother’s here as well. We were proud of them on graduation day, weren’t we, Katie? And we’re going to be proud every month for the rest of our lives.

I mean, we had to borrow so much money to send them to college and were not the only ones. There’re families all across America who aren’t able to contribute to our economy because of this crushing student loan. I also propose that we can pay for this with a tax on high volume trades and we need to because my dad came to college after World War II on a G.I. Bill.

But today, we’re the only nation on the planet that’s saddling our kids with a lifetime of bills. That’s a drag on the economy. It’s one of the key investments we need to make. I was flattered that Secretary Clinton two months later borrowed so many of my proposals to incorporate into hers. And in our party, unlike the Republican party, we actually believe that the more our people learn, the more they will earn and higher education should be a right for every kid.

MUIR: Secretary Clinton.

CLINTON: Right.

MCELVEEN: Secretary Clinton, how does your plan differentiate from your opponents?

CLINTON: Well, I have what I call the new college compact. Because I think everybody has to have some skin in this game, you know.

Number one, States have been dis-investing in higher education. In fact, I think New Hampshire, in state tuition for public colleges and universities, is among the highest if not the highest in the country. So states over a period of decades have put their money elsewhere; into prisons, into highways, into things other than higher education. So under my compact, the federal government will match money that the states begin to put back in to the higher education system.

Secondly, I don’t believe in free tuition for everybody. I believe we should focus on middle-class families, working families, and poor kids who have the ambition and the talent to go to college and get ahead. So I have proposed debt free tuition, which I think is affordable and I would move a lot of the Pell Grant and other aid into the arena where it could be used for living expense. So I put all of this together, again, on my website and I’ve gotten such a good response.

But I want to quickly say, one of the areas that Senator Sanders touched on in talking about education and certainly talking about health care is his commitment to really changing the systems. Free college, a single payer system for health, and it’s been estimated were looking at 18 to $20 trillion, about a 40 percent in the federal budget.

And I have looked at his proposed plans for health care for example, and it really does transfer every bit of our health care system including private health care, to the states to have the states run. And I think we’ve got to be really thoughtful about how we’re going to afford what we proposed, which is why everything that I have proposed I will tell you exactly how I’m going to pay for it; including college.

MCELVEEN: Thank you Secretary Clinton, thank you.

SANDERS: May I respond to the critique on the …

MCELVEEN: Back to you David.

MUIR: We’re going to get right into this Senator but I want to ask about taxes next. This is included.

SANDERS: I would just…

MUIR: She was asking about that…

SANDERS: But Secretary Clinton is wrong.

As you know, because I know you know a lot about health care. You know that the United States per capita pays far and away more than other country. And it is unfair simply to say how much more the program will cost without making sure that people know that, we are doing away with cost of private insurance and that the middle class will be paying substantially less for health care on the single payer than on the Secretary’s Clinton proposal.

CLINTON: Well, the only thing – the only thing I can go on Senator Sanders…

MUIR: Are we back on health care – Secretary Clinton hold one moment. Senator Sanders…

(CROSSTALK)

CLINTON: Your proposal is to go and send the health care system to the state.

MUIR: Secretary Clinton, please.

CLINTON: And my analysis is, that you are going to get more taxes out of middle class families. I’m the only person…

MUIR: So let’s ask about it.

Secretary Clinton, let’s turn to the taxes.

CLINTON: … saying, no middle class tax raises. That’s off the table…

MUIR: This is where we are going next, we are going next to taxes here…

SANDERS: Now, this is getting to be fun.

MUIR: This is fun.

(APPLAUSE)

This is democracy at work.

Secretary Clinton, let me ask you about your tax plan because from the crushing cost of college education, the next question most families have; is will my taxes go up under the next president? You have said it’s your goal not to raise taxes on families making under $200,000 a year a goal. But can you say that’s a promise as you stand here tonight?

CLINTON: That is a pledge that I’m making. I made it when I ran in 2008.

MUIR: A promise?

CLINTON: Yes, and it was the same one that President Obama made. Because I don’t think we should be imposing new big programs that are going to raise middle class families’ taxes.

We just heard that most families haven’t had a wage increase since 2001. Since, you know, the end of the last Clinton administration when incomes did go up for everybody. And we’ve got to get back to where people can save money again, where they can invest in their families, and I don’t think a middle-class tax should be part of anybody’s plan right now.

SANDERS: Let me respond to…

(APPLAUSE)

MUIR: Secretary Clinton…

SANDERS: Let me respond to…

MUIR: Please.

SANDERS: Number one, most important economic reality of today is that over the last 30 years, there has been a transfer of trillions of dollars from the middle class to the top one-tenth of one percent who are seeing a doubling of the percentage of wealth that they own.

Now, when Secretary Clinton says, “I’m not going raise taxes on the middle class,” let me tell you what she is saying. She is disagreeing with FDR on Social Security, LBJ on Medicare and with the vast majority of progressive Democrats in the House and the Senate, who today are fighting to end the disgrace of the United States being the only major country on Earth that doesn’t provide paid family and medical leave.

What the legislation is is $1.61 a week. Now, you can say that’s a tax on the middle class. It will provide three months paid family and medical leave for the working families of this country. I think, Secretary Clinton, $1.61 a week is a pretty good invest.

MUIR: Senator, thank you. Let me bring in Governor O’Malley…

CLINTON: Senator, I have been — I have been fighting for paid…

MUIR: You’ve heard…

CLINTON: … family leave for a very long time…

MUIR: Secretary Clinton.

SANDERS: David, thank you.

CLINTON: I have a way to pay for it that actually makes the wealthiest pay for it…

SANDERS: Then (inaudible)…

CLINTON: … not everybody else.

SANDERS: Every (inaudible) Democrat and senator in support of this proposal introduced by your good friend and my good friend, Kirsten Gillibrand, Rosa DeLauro, got ears (ph) to legislation out there that will finally provide family and medical leave.

MUIR: Thank you. I want to bring in Governor O’Malley on this. We heard the promise from Secretary Clinton because people want to know about their taxes, will they go up. She has now promised here tonight not to raise them on families making $250,000 or less. Can you make that same promise if you’re elected?

O’MALLEY: No, I’ve never made a promise like that. But unlike either of these two fine people, I’ve actually balanced a budget every single year. I was one — I was the only — one of only seven states that had a AAA bond rating. By the time I left, the average tax burden on Maryland families was the same as when I started.

But I did pass a more progressive income tax and asked the highest-earning people to pay another 14 percent. David, look, this is the big — I agree, by the way, that we should have paid family leave. And I agree with Senator Sanders on that. And just like Social Security and unlike the Republicans, I think we should actually expand Social Security and increase average monthly benefits.

But look, there’s one big entitlement we can no longer afford as a country, and that is the entitlement that the super wealthy among us, those earning more than a million dollars, feel that they’re entitled to pay lower income tax rates and a far lower preferred income tax rate when it comes to capital gains.

If we were to raise the marginal rate to 45 percent for people earning more than a million dollars and if we tax capital gains essentially the same we do earnings from hard work and sweat and toil, you could generate $800 billion over the next ten years and that would do so much good for affordable college, debt-free college, cutting youth unemployment in half, investing in our cities again.

So the things I have done in office are the things that actually invest in growing our economy and making wages go up. That’s the issue that we need to tackle as Americans, and we can do it and we know how.

MUIR: Governor O’Malley, thank you. A spirited debate on taxes. And there will be more with the Democratic debate in New Hampshire, when we come back right here on ABC. More in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MUIR: Welcome back tonight to New Hampshire. The Democratic debate continues here on ABC.

And Secretary Clinton, we want to turn to race, now, in America. There is a real concern in this country from Black Lives Matter and from other community groups that we’re just now seeing, with smartphones and cell phones, what many have been dealing with for years when they come in contact with police.

But you also have many in law enforcement who now say there has been a so-called Ferguson effect, police holding back because they’re afraid of backlash.

MUIR: In fact, the FBI director is calling it a chill wind blowing through American law enforcement. So, if elected president, how would you bridge the divide between the two?

CLINTON: Well, David, I think this is one of the most important challenges facing not just our next president but our country. We have systemic racism and injustice and inequities in our country and in particular, in our justice system that must be addressed and must be ended.

I feel very strongly that we have to reform our criminal justice system and we have to find ways to try to bring law enforcement together again with the communities that they are sworn to protect. Trust has been totally lost in a lot of places.

At the same time, we know that in many parts of our country police officers are bridging those divides and they’re acting heroically. The young officer who was killed responding to the Planned Parenthood murders. The officer who told the victims of the San Bernardino killings that he would take a bullet before them.

So I think that we need to build on the work of the policing commissioner that President Obama impaneled. We need to get a bipartisan commitment to work together on this.

And we need to hear the voices of those men and women and boys and girls who feel like strangers in their own country and do whatever is necessary to not only deal with the immediate problems within the criminal justice system, but more opportunities, more jobs, better education so that we can begin to rebuild that very valuable asset known as trust.

MUIR: Secretary, thank you.

(APPLAUSE)

MUIR: Governor O’Malley, how would you bridge the divide?

O’MALLEY: There is no issue in American public policy that I have worked on more day in and day out than this painful issue of policing, of law enforcement, criminal justice and race in America.

When I ran in 1999, David, for mayor of Baltimore, our city by that year had become the most addicted, violent, and abandoned in America. But we came together. I brought people together over some very deep racial divides. And we were able to put our city on the path for the biggest reduction in crime of any major city in America over the next ten years.

As governor, we continued to work together. We reduced violent crime to 30-year lows. But get this. We also reduced incarceration rates to 20-year lows. So it is possible actually, to find the things that actually work, that we did, increasing drug treatment, using big data to better protect the lives of young people, cut juvenile crime in half, and it’s also possible to improve how we police our police.

But there wasn’t a single day as mayor of Baltimore that I wasn’t asked whether I was delivering on the promise I made to police the police. We reported excessive force, discourtesy, use of lethal force. In fact, drove down to three of the four lowest years on record police use of lethal force.

As a nation, we have to embrace this moment and make our departments more open, more transparent, and more accountable. Just as we require every major department, every county to report its major crimes, we should require police departments to report their discourtesy, brutality, excessive force.

There’s so much work that can be done, so much we’ve learned to do better. We need to do it now as a nation. This is our time and our opportunity to do that.

MUIR: Governor, thank you.

(APPLAUSE)

MUIR: And Senator Sanders, when you hear the FBI director calling it a chill wind blowing through American law enforcement, does that concern you as well when you —

SANDERS: Well, this whole issue concerns me. And I agree with much of what the secretary and the governor have said. But let’s be clear. Today in America we have more people in jail than any other country on earth, 2.2 million people. Predominantly African-American and Hispanic.

We are spending $80 billion a year locking up our fellow Americans. I think, and this is not easy, but I think we need to make wage a major effort, to come together as a country and end institutional racism. We need major, major reforms of a very broken criminal justice system. Now, what does that mean?

Well, for a start it means that police officers should not be shooting unarmed people, predominantly African-Americans.

(APPLAUSE)

SANDERS: It means that we have to rethink the so-called war on drugs which has destroyed the lives of millions of people, which is why I have taken marijuana out of the Controlled Substance Act. So that it will not be a federal crime.

SANDERS: That is why we need to make…

(APPLAUSE)

That is why we need to make police — and I speak as a former mayor. I was a mayor for eight years, worked very closely with a great police department. And what we did is try to move that department toward community policing, so that the police officers become part of the community and not, as we see, in some cities an oppressive force.

We need to make police departments look like the communities they serve in terms of diversity. We need to end minimal sentencing. We need, basically, to pledge that we’re going to invest in this country, in jobs and education, not more jails and incarceration.

(APPLAUSE)

MUIR: Senator, thank you. We want to turn now to an issue.

This next issue has destroyed so many families across the country, and in particular right here in New Hampshire, heroin. And there’s a stunning new figure out. A recent poll — 48 percent here, in this state alone, say they know someone who has abused heroin.

We’re going to turn tonight to Dan Tuohy of the New Hampshire Union Leader who has this question.

QUESTION: New Hampshire has been hard hit by the heroin epidemic, and we’re on track to have twice as many overdose deaths this year as in 2013.

What specifically would you do to address this crisis?

MUIR: Senator Sanders, I’m going to take this to you first because you’ve seen what’s happened with heroin right on the border in your own state.

SANDERS: Yes. Look, this is a tragedy for New Hampshire. It is a tragedy for my state of Vermont. It is a tragedy all over this country. The number of heroin deaths are growing very, very significantly.

What do we do? Well, for a start, this may seem like a radical idea, but I think we have got to tell the medical profession and doctors who are prescribing opiates and the pharmaceutical industry that they have got to start getting their act together, we cannot have this huge number of opiates out there throughout this country, where young people are taking them, getting hooked, and then going to heroin.

Second of all, and the reason I believe in a health care for all program, we need to understand that addiction is a disease, not a criminal activity.

(APPLAUSE)

And that means — and that means radically changing the way we deal with mental health and addiction issues. When somebody is addicted and seeking help, they should not have to wait three, four months in order to get that help. They should be able to walk in the door tomorrow and get a variety of treatments that work for them.

So those are some of the areas that I think we’ve got to move on.

MUIR: Senator, thank you. Secretary Clinton?

CLINTON: You know, on my very first visit to New Hampshire in this campaign, I was in Keene, and I was asked what are you going to do about the heroin epidemic? And all over New Hampshire, I met grandmothers who are raising children because they lost the father or the mother to an overdose. I met young people who are desperately trying to get clean and have nowhere to go, because there are not enough facilities.

So this is a major epidemic, and it has hit New Hampshire and Vermont particularly hard. I’ve had had two town halls, one in Keene, one in Laconia, dedicated exclusively to talking about what we can do. And I’ve heard some great ideas about how law enforcement is changing its behavior, how the recovery community is reaching out.

And I was proud to get the endorsement of Mayor Walsh of Boston, who has made his struggle with alcoholism a real clarion call for action in this arena.

So, I’ve laid out a five-point plan about what we can do together. I would like the federal government to offer $10 billion over ten years to work with states, and I really applaud Governor Hassan for taking up this challenge and working with the legislature here to come up with a plan.

We need to do more on the prescribing end of it. There are too many opioids being prescribed, and that leads directly now to heroin addiction. And we need to change the way we do law enforcement, and of course, we need more programs and facilities, so when somebody is ready to get help, there’s a place for them to go.

And every law enforcement should carry the antidote to overdose, Naloxone, so that they can save lives that are on the brink of expiring.

MUIR: Secretary, thank you. O’MALLEY: And you know, I actually know a great deal about this issue. And I have a dear friend, played music with him for years, remember when his — when he came home with his baby girl, and now she’s no longer with us, because of addiction and overdose.

The last time in New Hampshire, I had to take a break shortly after landing and call home and comfort a friend whose mother had died of an overdose.

O’MALLEY: Drugs have taken far too many of our citizens. It’s a huge public health challenge. In our own city, I mentioned before, we had become the most addicted city in America.

But together, every single year, I expanded drug treatment funding within our city and then I expanded it in our state, and we were saving lives every single year doing the things that work, intervening earlier, understanding the continuum of care that’s required until we got hit like every other state in the state — in the United States, especially in New Hampshire and in the northeast with this opioid addiction, the over-prescribing.

I agree, we need better — we need to rein in the over- prescribing, but I have put forward on my — in my plan a $12 billion federal investment. We have to invest in the local partnerships, and the best place to intervene, the best indicator of when a person is actually on the verge of killing themselves because of an addiction, is at the hospital. That very first time they show up with a near miss, we should be intervening there. That’s what I said to my own public health people. What would we do if this were ebola? How would we act?

So many more Americans have been killed by the combination of heroin and these highly addictive pain pills, and yet, we refuse to act. There are thing that can be done. Go on to my website. My plan is there. It’s one of 15 strategic goals I’ve set out to make our country a better place by cutting these sort of deaths in half in the next five years.

MUIR: Governor O’Malley, thank you.

Martha?

(APPLAUSE)

RADDATZ: Secretary Clinton, I want to circle back to something that your opponents here have brought up. Libya is falling apart. The country is a haven for ISIS and jihadists with an estimated 2,000 ISIS fighters there today. You advocated for that 2011 intervention and called it smart power at its best. And yet, even President Obama said the U.S. should have done more to fill the leadership vacuum left behind. How much responsibility do you bear for the chaos that followed elections?

CLINTON: Well, first, let’s remember why we became part of a coalition to stop Gadhafi from committing massacres against his people. The United States was asked to support the Europeans and the Arab partners that we had and we did a lot of due diligence about whether we should or not, and eventually, yes, I recommended and the president decided that we would support the action to protect civilians on the ground and that led to the overthrow of Gadhafi.

I think that what Libya then did by having a full free election, which elected moderates, was an indication of their crying need and desire to get on the right path. Now, the whole region has been rendered unstable, in part because of the aftermath of the Arab Spring, in part because of the very effective outreach and propagandizing that ISIS and other terrorist groups do.

But what we’re seeing happening in Libya right now is that there has been a fragile agreement to put aside the differences that exist among Libyans themselves to try to dislodge ISIS from Sirte, the home town of Gadhafi, and to begin to try to create a national government.

You know, this is not easy work. We did a lot to help. We did as much as we could because the Libyans themselves had very strong feelings about what they wished to accept. But we’re always looking for ways about what more we can do to try to give people a chance to be successful.

RADDATZ: Secretary Clinton, I want to go back. That — government lacked institutions and experience. It had been a family business for 40 years. On the security side, we offered only a modest training effort and a very limited arms buy-back program. Let me ask you the question again. How much responsibility do you bear for the chaos that followed those elections?

CLINTON: Martha, we offered a lot more than they were willing to take. We offered a lot more. We also got rid of their chemical weapons, which was a big help, and we also went after a lot of the shoulder-fired missiles to round them up. You know, we can’t — if we’re not going to send American troops, which there was never any idea of doing that, then to try to send trainers, to try to send experts, is something we offered, Europeans offered, the U.N. offered, and there wasn’t a lot of responsiveness at first.

I think a lot of the Libyans who had been forced out of their country by Gadhafi who came back to try to be part of a new government, believed they knew what to do and it turned out that they were no match for some of the militaristic forces inside that country. But I’m not giving up on Libya and I don’t think anybody should. We’ve been at this a couple of years.

RADDATZ: But were mistakes made?

CLINTON: Well, there’s always a retrospective to say what mistakes were made. But I know that we offered a lot of help and I know it was difficult for the Libyans to accept help. What we could have done if they had said yes would have been a lot more than what we were able to have done.

SANDERS: But what…

RADDATZ: Senator Sanders.

SANDERS: Look, the secretary is right. This is a terribly complicated issue. There are no simple solutions. But where we have a disagreement is that I think if you look at the history of regime changes, you go back to Mossaddegh (ph) in Iran, you go back to Salvador Allende who we overthrew in Chile, you go back to overthrowing Saddam Hussein in Iraq, you go back to where we are today in Syria with a dictator named Assad.

The truth is it is relatively easy for a powerful nation like America to overthrow a dictator but it is very hard to predict the unintended consequences and the turmoil and the instability that follows after you overthrow that dictator.

So I think secretary Clinton and I have a fundamental disagreement. I’m not quite the fan of regime change that I believe she is.

O’MALLEY: Martha — I would just repeat that —

CLINTON: Well, I would just repeat that.

RADDATZ: Secretary Clinton.

CLINTON: Wait a minute. I think it’s only fair to put on the record, Senator Sanders voted in the Senate for a resolution calling for ending the Gadhafi regime and asking that the U.N. be brought in, either a congressional vote or a U.N. Security Council vote. We got a U.N. Security council vote.

Now, I understand that this is very difficult. And I’m not standing here today and saying that Libya is as far along as Tunisia. We saw what happened in Egypt. I cautioned about a quick overthrow of Mubarak, and we now are back with basically an army dictatorship.

This is a part of the world where the United States has tried to play two different approaches. One, work with the tough men, the dictators, for our own benefit and promote democracy. That’s a hard road to walk. But I think it’s the right road for us to try to travel.

O’MALLEY: And Martha…

RADDATZ: Quick Governor O’Malley.

O’MALLEY: … and in this case, we probably let our lust for regime toppling get ahead of the practical considerations for stability in that region. And I believe that one of the big failings in that region is a lack of human intelligence. We have not made the investments that we need to make to understand and to have relationships with future leaders that are coming up.

That’s what Chris Stevens was trying to do. But without the tools, without the support that was needed to that. And now what we have is a whole stretch now, of the coast of Libya, 100 miles, 150 miles, that has now become potentially the next safe haven for ISIL. They go back and forth between Syria and this region. We have to stop contributing to the creation of vacuums that allow safe havens to develop.

RADDATZ: Thank you very much. Thank you. We’re going to move on here. Governor O’Malley, thank you very much for that. And we’re going to make a very sharp turn as we wrap things up here.

Secretary Clinton, first ladies, as you well know, have used their position to work on important causes like literacy and drug abuse. But they also supervise the menus, the flowers, the holiday ornaments and White House decor. I know you think you know where I’m going here.

You have said that Bill Clinton is a great host and loves giving tours but may opt out of picking flower arrangements if you’re elected. Bill Clinton aside, is it time to change the role of a president’s spouse?

CLINTON: Well, the role has been defined by each person who’s held it. And I am very grateful for all my predecessors and my successors because each of them not only did what she could to support her husband and our country but often chose to work on important issues that were of particular concern.

Obviously, Mrs. Obama has been a terrific leader when it comes to young people’s health, particularly nutrition and exercise. And I think has had a big impact. So whoever is part of the family of a president has an extraordinary privilege of not only having a front row seat on history but making her or maybe his contribution.

And with respect to my own husband, I am probably still going to pick the flowers and the china for state dinners and stuff like that. But I will certainly turn to him as prior presidents have for special missions, for advice, and in particular, how we’re going to get the economy working again for everybody, which he knows a little bit about.

(APPLAUSE)

MUIR: I do want to follow up here for each of you. And a similar line of questioning. Senator Sanders, your wife Jane shares an office at your campaign headquarters in Burlington. We’ve seen the pictures, the desks right next to each other. Would she have a desk close by in the west wing?

SANDERS: Given the fact that she’s a lot smarter than me, yes, she would.

(LAUGHTER)

And let me, by the way, take this moment to congratulate Hillary Clinton, who I thought not only did an outstanding job as our first lady, but redefined what that role could be.

So, I thank you very much for that.

(LAUGHTER)

My wife, Jane, has been — way back when before I knew her, a foster parent. Many, many kids came into her home and received the kind of love that they desperately needed. And she turned around many lives.

She is the best parent and grandmother that I know. She has devoted her life, when I was mayor of the city of Burlington, actually when I first met her, we started a youth office, which started a after-school programs for kids, started a child care center, started a youth newspaper. We got the kids involved in a whole lot of issues.

She led that effort. So I think, at a time when so many of our kids are desperately looking for constructive activity, where too many of our kids are hanging around on street corners, potentially getting into trouble, I think we need a forceful advocate for the children, for teenagers, for the little children, to deal with the dysfunctional child care system, and I think my wife would do a great job in helping me accomplish those goals.

MUIR: Senator, thank you.

Governor O’Malley — Governor O’Malley, you have talked about your wife, Katie, here tonight. She’s a district court judge. And the question for you is, would she have to give that up as first lady, or will she share an office in the west wing as well? O’MALLEY: Well, that would be totally up to her. I mean, Katie has never been a person who let her husband’s professional choices get in the way of following her dreams.

And I think she got that from her mother, actually.

(APPLAUSE)

The — and I readily admit that she is a far more accomplished lawyer than I was ever able to become, before I took my detour. She is a district court judge in Maryland. She puts in a full day there. We’ve raised four terrific kids. And yet, when she was first lady of the state, not only would she go to work every day and sit there through a lot of sad and gut-wrenching cases, but then she’d put in additional time being an advocate against domestic violence.

Maryland made great strides on that because of her advocacy, and her understanding of how the court process works. She was an advocate against bullying and implementing anti-bullying things. So Katie O’Malley will do whatever Katie O’Malley wants to do, regardless of her husband’s success in getting elected president.

(APPLAUSE)

MUIR: Governor O’Malley, thank you, (inaudible).

O’MALLEY: Thank you.

MUIR: Governor, thank you. We’ll be back with much more from New Hampshire. The Democratic debate continues right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MUIR: Welcome back tonight. It’s been an evening of lively discussion among the candidates and it’s time for closing statements. We began in alphabetical order, so we’ll reverse the order at the end and begin with you, Senator Sanders.

SANDERS: Well, thank you very much for hosting this debate, and let me applaud my colleagues up here. Because I think frankly, maybe I’m wrong, but on our worst day, I think we have a lot more to offer the American people than the right wing’s extremists.

(APPLAUSE)

SANDERS: My father came to this country from Poland at the age of 17 without a nickel in his pocket, which sparked my interest in the need for immigration reform because I know what it’s like to be the son of an immigrant.

We grew up in a three-and-a-half-room, rent controlled apartment in Brooklyn, New York. My mother’s dream — and she died very young, but my mother’s dream for her whole life was to be able to get out of that rent-controlled apartment and own a home of her own. She never lived to see that.

SANDERS: But what my parents did accomplish is they were able to send both of their sons to college. We were the first in the family. So I know something about economic anxiety and living in a family does not have sufficient income.

And that is why I am pledged, if elected president of the United States, to bring about a political revolution where millions of people begin to stand up and finally say enough is enough, this great country and our government belong to all of us, not just a handful of billionaires. Thank you very much.

(APPLAUSE)

RADDATZ: Governor O’Malley?

Martha, thank you. I want to thank all of the people who have tuned in tonight. I want to thank the great people of New Hampshire, where despite all of the cynicism about big money and big banks taking over our politics, here in New Hampshire, the individual matters.

You know, my wife Katie and I have four terrific kids, and like you, there’s probably nothing we wouldn’t do to give them a future that’s safer, that’s healthier, where they have more opportunity than our parents and grandparents gave to us. Tonight, what you listened to was a healthy exchange of ideas about how we’d do that, that which we have always proven, the capacity to do better than any nation in the world, to take actions that include more of our people more fully in the economic, social and political life of our country.

When you listened to the Republican debate the other night, you heard a lot of anger and you had a lot of fear. Well, they can have their anger and they can have their fear, but anger and fear never built America. We build our country by adopting wage and labor policies, including comprehensive immigration reform with a pathway of citizenship for all. We do it by investing in our country, by investing in infrastructure, by investing in the skills and the talents of our people with debt-free college, and we can do it again.

And we also create a better future for our kids when we square our shoulders to the great challenges of our times, whether it’s terror trying to undermine our values or Republican presidential candidates trying to get us to surrender our freedoms and our values in the face of this threat.

The other big challenge we have is climate change. The greatest business opportunity to come to the United States of America in 100 years. We need to embrace this. I have put forward a plan that does this, that moves us to 100 percent clean electric grid by 2050. Join this campaign for the future. New leadership is what our country needs to move us out of these divided and polarized times. Thank you.

MUIR: Governor, thank you.

(APPLAUSE)

Secretary Clinton?

CLINTON: On January 20th, 2017, the next president of the United States will walk into the White House. If, heaven forbid, that next president is a Republican, I think it’s pretty clear we know what will happen. A lot of the rights that have been won over years, from women’s rights to voter rights to gay rights to worker rights, will be at risk.

Social Security, which Republicans call a Ponzi scheme, may face privatization. Our vets may see the V.A. hospital that needs to be improved and made better for them turned over to privatization. Planned Parenthood will be defunded. The list goes on because the differences are so stark.

You know, everybody says every election’s important, and there’s truth to that. This is a watershed election. I know how important it is that we have a Democrat succeed President Obama in the White House. And I will do all that I can in this campaign to reach out and explain what I stand for and what I will do as president.

You know, I became a grandmother 15 months ago, and so I spent a lot of time thinking about my granddaughter’s future. But as president, I will spend even more time thinking about the futures of all the kids and the grandchildren in this country because I want to make sure every single child has a chance to live up to his or her God-given potential. If you will join me in this campaign, we will make that a mission. Thank you, good night and may the force be with you.

(APPLAUSE)

MUIR: Thank you to the candidates tonight. Thank you to the audience here in New Hampshire here at St. Anselm. And thank you to the audience at home. We wish all of you at home a happy and safe holiday week ahead and we wish all the candidates a happy and safe holiday with your families.

Full Text Campaign Buzz 2016 November 14, 2015: Second Democratic Debate in Des Moines, Iowa Transcript

ELECTION 2016

CampaignBuzz2016

CAMPAIGN BUZZ 2016

Transcript: Read the Full Text of the Second Democratic Debate

Source: Time, 11-14-15

Three Democratic presidential candidates met in Des Moines, Iowa, for a late-night debate Saturday.

At the debate at Drake University were former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders and former Maryland Gov. Martin O’Malley.

The moderators were “Face the Nation” anchor John Dickerson, CBS News Congressional correspondent Nancy Cordes, KCCI anchor Kevin Cooney and Des Moines Register political columnist Kathie Obradovich.

Here is a running transcript of the debate, courtesy of CBS.

DICKERSON: Good evening, I’m John Dickerson of CBS News in Des Moines, Iowa.

The debate you’ve tuned in to see tonight is a symbol of the freedom we all cherish.

DICKERSON: Last night the world watched in horror as freedom was savagely attacked in the heart of Paris. At least 129 people were killed and many more wounded in a coordinated series of terror attacks. Tonight, as France mourns, so does America.

So before we begin tonight’s second debate with these candidates for the Democratic presidential nomination, we ask you to join us in observing a moment of silence.

Now, please welcome to Drake University, former secretary of state Hillary Clinton.

(APPLAUSE)

Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont.

(APPLAUSE)

And Martin O’Malley, the former governor of Maryland.

(APPLAUSE)

Joining me in the questioning tonight are CBS news congressional correspondent Nancy Cordes, anchor Kevin Cooney of our CBS Des Moines affiliate KCCI, and political columnist Kathie Obradovich of the Des Moines Register.

(APPLAUSE)

Twitter is another of our partners for this debate. Tweets will help us follow the reaction to what the candidates say.

DICKERSON: So please send us your comments using the hashtag #demdebate.

And we’ll begin in just a moment.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DICKERSON: Before we — before we start the debate, here are the rules.

The candidates have one minute to respond to our questions and 30 seconds to respond to our follow-ups. Any candidate who is attacked by another candidate gets 30 seconds for rebuttal.

Here’s how we’ll keep time. After a question is asking, the green light goes on. When there are 15 seconds left, the candidate gets a yellow warning light. And when time is up, the light turns red — that means stop talking.

(LAUGHTER)

Those are the rules. So let’s get started. You will each have one minute for an opening statement to share your thoughts about the attacks in Paris, and lay out your vision for America.

First, Senator Sanders.

SANDERS: Well, John, let me concur with you and with all Americans who are shocked and disgusted by what we saw in Paris yesterday.

Together, leading the world, this country will rid our planet of this barbarous organization called ISIS.

I’m running for president, because as I go around this nation, I talk to a lot of people. And what I hear is people’s concern that the economy we have is a rigged economy. People are working longer hours for lower wages, and almost all of the new income and wealth goes to the top one percent.

And then on top of that, we’ve got a corrupt campaign finance system in which millionaires and billionaires are pouring huge sums of money into super PACS heavily influencing the political process. What my campaign is about is a political revolution — millions of people standing up and saying, enough is enough. Our government belongs to all of us, and not just the hand full of billionaires.

DICKERSON: All right, Senator Sanders.

Secretary Clinton.

CLINTON: Well, our prayers are with the people of France tonight, but that is not enough. We need to have a resolve that will bring the world together to root out the kind of radical jihadist ideology that motivates organizations like ISIS, a barbaric, ruthless, violent jihadist terrorist group.

This election is not only about electing a president. It’s also about choosing our next commander-in-chief. And I will be laying out in detail, what I think we need to do with our friends and allies in Europe and elsewhere to do a better job of coordinating efforts against the scourge of terrorism. Our country deserves no less, because all of the other issues we want to deal with depend upon us being secure and strong.

DICKERSON: Governor O’Malley.

O’MALLEY: My heart, like all of us in this room, John, and all the people across our country, my hearts go out to the people of France in this moment of loss. Parents, and sons, and daughters and family members, and as our hearts go out to them and as our prayers go out to them, we must remember this, that this isn’t the new face of conflict and warfare, not in the 20th century but the new face of conflict and warfare in the 21st century.

And there is no nation on the planet better able to adapt to this change than our nation. We must able to work collaboratively with others. We must anticipate these threats before they happen. This is the new sort of challenge, the new sort of threat that does, in fact, require new thinking, fresh approaches and new leadership.

As a former mayor and a former governor, there was never a single day, John, when I went to bed or woke up without realizing that this could happen in our own country. We have a lot of work to do, to better prepare our nation and to better lead this world into this new century.

DICKERSON: All right, thank you, Governor. Thank all of you.

The terror attacks last night underscore biggest challenge facing the next president of the United States. At a time of crisis, the country and the world look to the president for leadership and for answers.

So, Secretary Clinton, I’d like to start with you. Hours before the attacks, President Obama said, “I don’t think ISIS is gaining strength.” Seventy-two percent of Americans think the fight against ISIS is going badly. Won’t the legacy of this administration, which is– which you were a part of, won’t that legacy be that it underestimated the threat from ISIS?

CLINTON: Well, John, I think that we have to look at ISIS as the leading threat of an international terror network. It cannot be contained, it must be defeated.

There is no question in my mind that if we summon our resources, both our leadership resources and all of the tools at our disposal, not just military force, which should be used as a last resort, but our diplomacy, our development aid, law enforcement, sharing of intelligence in a much more open and cooperative way — that we can bring people together.

But it cannot be an American fight. And I think what the president has consistently said– which I agree with– is that we will support those who take the fight to ISIS. That is why we have troops in Iraq that are helping to train and build back up the Iraqi military, why we have special operators in Syria working with the Kurds and Arabs, so that we can be supportive.

But this cannot be an American fight, although American leadership is essential.

DICKERSON: But as — Secretary Clinton, the question was about, was ISIS underestimated? And I’ll just add, the president referred to ISIS as the JVU (sic), in a speech at the Council of Foreign Relations in June of 2014 said, “I could not have predicted the extent to which ISIS could be effective in seizing cities in Iraq.”

So you’ve got prescriptions for the future, but how do we even those prescript prescriptions are any good if you missed it in the past?

CLINTON: Well, John, look, I think that what happened when we abided by the agreement that George W. Bush made with the Iraqis to leave by 2011, is that an Iraqi army was left that had been trained and that was prepared to defend Iraq. Unfortunately, Nouri al-Maliki, the prime minister, set about decimating it. And then, with the revolution against Assad — and I did early on say we needed to try to find a way to train and equip moderates very early so that we would have a better idea of how to deal with Assad because I thought there would be extremist groups filling the vacuum.

So, yes, this has developed. I think that there are many other reasons why it has in addition to what happened in the region, but I don’t think that the United States has the bulk of the responsibility. I really put that on Assad and on the Iraqis and on the region itself.

DICKERSON: Okay, Governor O’Malley, would you critique the administration’s response to ISIS. If the United States doesn’t lead, who leads?

O’MALLEY: John, I would disagree with Secretary Clinton respectfully on this score.

This actually is America’s fight. It cannot solely be America’s fight.

America is best when we work in collaboration with our allies. America is best when we are actually standing up to evil in this world. And ISIS, make no mistake about it, is an evil in this world.

ISIS has brought down a Russian airliner. ISIS has now attacked a western democracy in — in France. And we do have a role in this. Not solely ours, but we must work collaboratively with other nations.

The great failing of these last 10 or 15 years, John, has been our failing of human intelligence on the ground. Our role in the world is not to roam the globe looking for new dictators to topple. Our role in the world is to make ourselves a beacon of hope. Make ourselves stronger at home, but also our role in the world, yes, is also to confront evil when it rises. We took out the safe haven in Afghanistan, but now there is, undoubtedly, a larger safe haven and we must rise to this occasion in collaboration and with alliances to confront it, and invest in the future much better human intelligence so we know what the next steps are.

DICKERSON: Senator Sanders, you said you want to rid the planet of ISIS. In the previous debate you said the greatest threat to national security was climate change. Do you still believe that?

SANDERS: Absolutely. In fact, climate change is directly related to the growth of terrorism. And if we do not get our act together and listen to what the scientists say, you’re going to see countries all over the world — this is what the CIA says — they’re going to be struggling over limited amounts of water, limited amounts of land to grow their crops ask you’re going to see all kinds of international conflict.

But, of course, international terrorism is a major issue that we have got to address today. And I agree with much of what the Secretary and the Governor have said. But let me have one area of disagreement with the Secretary.

I think she said something like the bulk of the responsibility is not ours. Well, in fact, I would argue that the disastrous invasion of Iraq, something that I strongly opposed, has unraveled the region completely and led to the rise of al-Qaeda and to ISIS.

Now, in fact, what we have got to do — and I think there is widespread agreement here — is the United States cannot do it alone. What we need to do is lead an international coalition which includes very significantly the Muslim nations in that region who are going to have to fight and defend their way of life.

DICKERSON: Quickly, just let me ask you a follow-up on that, Senator Sanders.

When you say the disastrous vote on Iraq, let’s just be clear about what you’re saying. You’re saying Secretary Clinton, who was then Senator Clinton, voted for the Iraq war. And are you making a direct link between her vote for that or and what’s happening now for ISIS. Just so everybody…

SANDERS: I don’t think any — I don’t think any sensible person would disagree that the invasion of Iraq led to the massive level of instability we are seeing right now. I think that was one of the worst foreign policy blunders in the more than history of the United States.

DICKERSON: Alright. Let’s let Secretary Clinton respond to that.

CLINTON: Thank you, John.

Well, thank you, John.

I think it’s important we put this in historic context. The United States has, unfortunately, been victimized by terrorism going back decades.

In the 1980s, it was in Beirut, Lebanon, under President Reagan’s administration, and 258 Americans, marines, embassy personnel, and others were murdered. We also had attacks on two of our embassies in Tanzania, Kenya, when my husband was president. Again, Americans murdered. And then, of course, 9/11 happened, which happened before there was an invasion of Iraq.

I have said the invasion of Iraq was a mistake. But I think if we’re ever going to really tackle the problems posed by jihadi extreme terrorism, we need to understand it and realize that it has antecedents to what happened in Iraq and we have to continue to be vigilant about it.

DICKERSON: Senator Sanders let me just follow this line of thinking. You criticized then, Senator Clinton’s vote.

Do you have anything to criticize in the way she performed as Secretary of State?

SANDERS: I think we have a disagreement, and the disagreement is that not only did I vote against the war in Iraq. If you look at history, John, you will find that regime change — whether it was in the early ’50s in Iran, whether it was toppling Salvador Allende in Chile, whether it is overthrowing the government of Guatemala way back when — these invasions, these toppling of governments, regime changes have unintended consequences. I would say that on this issue, I’m a little bit more conservative than the Secretary…

DICKERSON: Alright.

SANDERS: … And that I am not a great fan of regime change.

DICKERSON: Senator let me…

O’MALLEY: John, may I — may I interject here? Secretary Clinton also said we — it was not just the invasion of Iraq which Secretary Clinton voted for and has since said was a big mistake — and, indeed, it was.

But it was also the cascading effects that followed that. It was also the disbanding of many elements of the Iraqi army that are now showing up as part of ISIS. It was country after country without making the investment in human intelligence to understand who the new leaders were and the new forces were that are coming up.

We need to be much more far thinking in this new 21st century era of — of nation state failures and conflict. It’s not just about getting rid of a single dictator. It is about understanding the secondary and third consequences that fall next.

DICKERSON: All right, Secretary Clinton.

CLINTON: Well, of course, each of these cases needs to be looked at individually and analyzed. Part of the problem that we have currently in the Middle East is that Assad has hung on to power with the very strong support of Russia and Iran and with the proxy of Hezbollah being there basically fighting his battles.

So I don’t think you can paint with a broad brush. This is an incredibly complicated region of the world. It’s become more complicated. And many of the fights that are going on are not ones that the United States has either started or have a role in. The Shi’a-Sunni split. The dictatorships have suppressed people’s aspirations. The increasing globalization without any real safety valve for people to have a better life. We saw that in Egypt. We saw a dictator overthrown. We saw a Muslim brotherhood president installed, and then we saw him ousted and the army back.

So, I think we’ve got to understand the complexity of the world that we are facing and no place is more so than in the Middle East.

DICKERSON: I understand. Quickly, Senator.

SANDERS: The Secretary’s obviously right. It is enormously complicated. But here’s something that I believe we have to do as we put together an international coalition, and that is we have to understand that the Muslim nations in the region — Saudi Arabia, Iran, Turkey, Jordan — all of these nations, they’re going to have to get their hands dirty, their boots on the ground. They are going to have to take on ISIS.

This is a war for the soul of Islam. And those countries who are opposed to Islam, they are going to have to get deeply involved in a way that is not the case today. We should be supportive of that effort. So should the UK, so should France. But those Muslim countries are going to have to lead the effort. They are not doing it now.

DICKERSON: Secretary Clinton.

CLINTON: Well, I think — I think that is very unfair to a few you mentioned, most particularly Jordan, which has put a lot on the line for the United States, has also taken in hundreds of thousands of refugees from Syria, and has been, therefore, subjected to threats and attacks by extremists themselves.

I do agree that in particular, Turkey and the Gulf nations have got to make up their minds. Are they going to stand with us against this kind of jihadi radicalism or not? And there are many ways of doing it. They can provide forces. They can provide resources. But they need to be absolutely clear about where they stand.

DICKERSON: Let me ask you, Secretary Clinton, a question about leadership.

We’re talking about what role does America take?

Let me ask you about Libya. So Libya is a country in which ISIS has taken hold in part because of the chaos after Muammar Gaddafi. That was an operation you championed. President Obama says this is the lesson he took from that operation. In an interview he said, the lesson was, do we have an answer for the day after? Wasn’t that suppose to be one of the lessons that we learned after the Iraq war? And how did you get it wrong with Libya if the key lesson of the Iraq war is have a plan for after?

CLINTON: Well, we did have a plan, and I think it’s fair to say that of all of the Arab leaders, Gaddafi probably had more blood on his hands of Americans than anybody else. And when he moved on his own people, threatening a massacre, genocide, the Europeans and the Arabs, our allies and partners, did ask for American help and we provided it.

And we didn’t put a single boot on the ground, and Gaddafi was deposed. The Libyans turned out for one of the most successful, fairest elections that any Arab country has had. They elected moderate leaders. Now, there has been a lot of turmoil and trouble as they have tried to deal with these radical elements which you find in this arc of instability, from north Africa to Afghanistan.

And it is imperative that we do more not only to help our friends and partners protect themselves and protect our own homeland, but also to work to try to deal with this arc of instability, which does have a lot of impact on what happens in a country like Libya.

DICKERSON: Governor O’ Malley I want to ask you a question and you can add whatever you’d like to. But let me ask you, is the world too dangerous a place for a governor who has no foreign policy experience?

O’ MALLEY: John, the world is a very dangerous place, but the world is not too dangerous of a place for the United States of America, provided we act according to our principles, provided we act intelligently. I mean, let’s talk about this arc of instability that Secretary Clinton talked about.

Libya is now a mess. Syria is a mess. Iraq is a mess. Afghanistan is a mess. As Americans, we have shown ourselves to have the greatest military on the face of the planet, but we are not so very good at anticipating threats and appreciating just how difficult it is to build up stable democracies, to make the investments and sustainable development that we must as a nation if we are to attack the root causes of these sorts of instability.

And I wanted to add one other thing, John, and I think it’s important for all of us on this stage. I was in Burlington, Iowa. And a mom of a service member of ours who served two duties in Iraq said, Governor O’ Malley, please, when you’re with your other candidates and colleagues on stage, please don’t use the term ‘boots on the ground’. Let’s don’t use the term ‘boots on the ground’.

My son is not a pair of boots on the ground. These are American soldiers and we fail them when we fail to take into account what happens the day after a dictator falls and when we fail to act with a whole of government approach with sustainable development, diplomacy, and our economic power in alignment with our principles.

CLINTON: Well, I think it’s perfectly fair to say that we invested quite a bit in development aid. Some of the bravest people that I had the privilege of working with as secretary of state were our development professionals who went sometimes alone, sometimes with our military, into very dangerous places in Iraq, in Afghanistan, elsewhere.

So, there does need to be a whole of government approach, but just because we’re involved and we have a strategy doesn’t mean we’re going to be able to dictate the outcome. These are often very long- term kinds of investments that have to be made.

(CROSSTALK)

SANDERS: When you talk about the long-term consequences of war, let’s talk about the men and women who came home from war. The 500,000 who came home with PTSD, and traumatic brain injury. And I would hope in the midst of all of this discussion, this country makes certain that we do not turn our backs on the men and women who put their lives on the line to defend us, and that we stand with them as they have stood with us.

DICKERSON: Secretary Clinton, you mentioned radical jihadists. Marco Rubio, also running for president, said that this attack showed and the attack in Paris showed that we are at war with radical Islam. Do you agree with that characterization, radical Islam?

CLINTON: I don’t think we’re at war with Islam. I don’t think we’re at war with all Muslims. I think we’re at war with jihadists who have —

DICKERSON: Just to interrupt. He didn’t say all Muslims. He just said radical Islam. Is that a phrase you don’t…

CLINTON: I think THAT you can talk about Islamists who clearly are also jihadists, but I think it’s not particularly helpful to make the case that Senator Sanders was just making that I agree with, that we’ve got to reach out to Muslim countries.

We’ve got to have them be part of our coalition. If they hear people running for president who basically shortcut it to say we are somehow against Islam, that was one of the real contributions, despite all the other problems, that George W. Bush made after 9/11 when he basically said after going to a Mosque in Washington, we are not at war with Islam or Muslims.

We are at war with violent extremism. We are at war with people who use their religion for purposes of power and oppression. And, yes, we are at war with those people. But I don’t want us to be painting with too broad a brush.

DICKERSON: The reason I ask is you gave a speech at Georgetown University in which you said, that it was important to show, quote, “respect, even for one’s enemies. Trying to understand and in so far as psychologically possible, empathize with their perspective and point of view.” Can you explain what that means in the context of this kind of barbarism?

CLINTON: I think with this kind of barbarism and nihilism, it’s very hard to understand, other than the lust for power, the rejection of modernity, the total disregard for human rights, freedom, or any other value that we know and respect.

Historically, it is important to try to understand your adversary in order to figure out how they are thinking, what they will be doing, how they will react. I plead that it’s very difficult when you deal with ISIS and organizations like that whose behavior is so barbaric and so vicious that it doesn’t seem to have any purpose other than lust for killing and power and that’s very difficult to put ourselves in the other shoe.

(CROSSTALK)

DICKERSON: Just quickly, do either of you, radical Islam, do either of you use that phrase?

SANDERS: I don’t think the term is what’s important. What is important to understand is we have organizations, whether it is ISIS or Al Qaida, who do believe we should go back several thousand years. We should make women third-class citizens, that we should allow children to be sexually assaulted, that they are a danger to modern society.

And that this world, with American leadership, can and must come together to destroy them. We can do that. And it requires an entire world to come together, including in a very active way, the Muslim nations.

DICKERSON: Governor O’ Malley, you have been making the case when you talk about lack of forward vision, you’re essentially saying that Secretary Clinton lacks that vision and this critique matches up with this discussion of language. The critique is that the softness of language betrays a softness of approach. So if this language — if you don’t call it by what it is, how can your approach be effective to the cause? that’s the critique.

O’ MALLEY: I believe calling it what it is, is to say radical jihadis. That’s calling it what it is. But John, let’s not fall into the trap of thinking that all of our Muslim American neighbors in this country are somehow our enemies here. They are our first line of defense.

And we are going to be able to defeat ISIS on the ground there, as well as in this world, because of the Muslim Americans in our country and throughout the world who understand that this brutal and barbaric group is perverting the name of a great world religion. And now, like never before, we need our Muslim American neighbors to stand up and to — and to be a part of this.

DICKERSON: Secretary Clinton, the French president has called this attack an act of war.

CLINTON: Yes.

DICKERSON: A couple of days ago you were asked if you would declare war on ISIS and you said no. What would you say now?

CLINTON: Well, we have an authorization to use military force against terrorists. We passed it after 9/11.

DICKERSON: And you think that covers all of this?

CLINTON: It certainly does cover it. I would like to see it updated.

DICKERSON: If you were in the Senate, would you be okay with the commander in chief doing that without it coming back to you?

CLINTON: No, it would have to go through the Congress, and I know the White House has actually been working with members of Congress. Maybe now we can get it moving again so that we can upgrade it so that it does include all the tools and everything in our arsenal that we can use to try to work with our allies and our friends, come up with better intelligence.

You know, it is difficult finding intelligence that is actionable in a lot of these places, but we have to keep trying. And we have to do more to prevent the flood of foreign fighters that have gone to Syria, especially the ones with western passports, that come back. So there’s a lot of work we need to do and I want to be sure what’s called the AUMF, has the authority that is needed going forward.

DICKERSON: Senator, let me just — let’s add to whatever you’ve got to say. Refugees. You’ve been a little vague on what you would do about the Syrian refugees. What’s your view on them now?

SANDERS: Let me do that but let me pick up on an issue, a very important issue that we have not yet discussed. This nation is the most powerful military in the world. We’re spending over $600 billion a year on the military and yet, significantly less than 10 percent of that money is used to be fighting international terrorism.

We are spending hundreds of billions of dollars maintaining 5,000 nuclear weapons. I think we need major reform in the military, making it more cost effective, but also focusing on the real crisis that faces us.

SANDERS: The Cold War is over. And our focus has got to be on intelligence, increased manpower, fighting internationally targets. So, in terms of refugees, I believe that the United States has the moral responsibility with Europe, with Gulf countries like Saudi Arabia to make sure that when people leave countries like Afghanistan and Syria with nothing more than the clothing on their back that, of course, we reach out.

Now, what the magic number is, I don’t know, because we don’t know the extent of the problem. But I certainly think that the United States should take its full responsibility in helping those people.

DICKERSON: Governor O’Malley, you have a magic number. I think it’s 65,000. Does that number go up or down based on what happened yesterday?

OMALLEY: John, I was the first person on this stage to say that we should accept the 65,000 Syrian refugees that were fleeing the sort of murder of ISIL, and I believe that that needs to be done with proper screening. But accommodating 65,000 refugees in our country today, people of 320 million, is akin to making room for 6.5 more people in a baseball stadium with 32,000.

There are other ways to lead and to be a moral leader in this world, rather than at the opposite end of a drone strike. But I would want to agree with something that Senator Sanders says. The nature of warfare has changed. This is not a conflict where we send in the third divisions of Marines. This is a new era of conflict where traditional ways of huge standing armies are not as — serve our purposes as well as special ops, better intelligence and being more proactive.

DICKERSON: Just very quickly, 65,000, the number stays?

OMALLEY: That’s what I understand is the request from the international…

DICKERSON: But for you, what would you want?

OMALLEY: I would want us to take our place among the nations of the world to alleviate this sort of death and the specter we saw of little kids’ bodies washing up on a beach.

DICKERSON: Secretary Clinton, let me ask you a question from twitter which has come in and this is a question on this issue of refugees. The question is, with the U.S. preparing to absorb Syrian refugees, how do you propose we screen those coming in to keep citizens safe?

CLINTON: I think that is the number one requirement. I also said that we should take increased numbers of refugees. The administration originally said 10. I said we should go to 65, but only if we have as careful a screening and vetting process as we can imagine, whatever resources it takes because I do not want us to, in any way, inadvertently allow people who wish us harm to come into our country.

But I want to say a quick word about what Senator Sanders and then Governor O’Malley said. We do have to take a hard look at the defense budget and we do have to figure out how we get ready to fight the adversaries of the future, not the past. But we have to also be very clear that we do have some continuing challenges.

We’ve got challenges in the South China Sea because of what China is doing in building up these military installations. We have problems with Russia. Just the other day, Russia allowed a television camera to see the plans for a drone submarine that could carry a tactical nuclear weapon. So we’ve got to look at the full range and then come to some smart decisions about having more streamlined and focused approach.

DICKERSON: Alright. Senator Sanders, I’m sorry. We’re going to have to take a break now. We will have more of the Democratic debate here from Drake University in Des Moines, Iowa.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DICKERSON: Want to turn now from terrorism to another important issue for many Americans, the financial squeeze on the the middle class. For that, we go to my CBS News Colleague, Nancy Cordes.

Nancy?

CORDES: John, thanks so much.

We’ve learned a lot during the course of this campaign about the things that you’d like to do that you say would help the middle class, but we haven’t heard quite as much about who would pick up the tab.

So Secretary Clinton, first to you. You want to cap individuals’ prescription drug costs at $250 a month. You want to make public college debt-free. You want community college to be free altogether. And you want mandatory paid family leave. So who pays for all that? Is it employers? Is it the taxpayers, and which taxpayers?

CLINTON: Well, first of all, it isn’t the middle class. I have made very clear that hardworking, middle-class families need a raise, not a tax increase. In fact, wages adjusted for inflation haven’t risen since the turn of the last century, after my husband’s administration. So we have a lot of work to do to get jobs going again, get incomes rising again. And I have laid out specific plans — you can go to my web site, hillaryclinton.com, and read the details. And I will pay for it by, yes, taxing the wealthy more, closing corporate loopholes, deductions, and other kinds of favorable treatment. And I can do it without raising the debt, without raising taxes on the middle class and making it reasonably manageable within our budget so that we can be fiscally responsible at the same time.

CORDES: But a quick follow-up on that $250-a-month cap. Wouldn’t the pharmaceutical companies and the insurance companies just pass that cost on to the consumers in the form of higher premiums?

CLINTON: Well, we’re going to have to redo the way the prescription drug industry does business. For example, it is outrageous that we don’t have an opportunity for Medicare to negotiate for lower prices. In fact, American consumers pay the highest prices in the world for drugs that we help to be developed through the National Institute of Health and that we then tested through the FDA.

So there’s more to my plan than just the cap. We have to go after price gouging and monopolistic practices and get Medicare the authority to negotiate.

CORDES: Governor O’Malley, you also want to make public college debt-free. You want…

OMALLEY: That’s right.

CORDES: … states to freeze tuition. You’ve got your own family leave plan. How would you pay for it? In Maryland, you raised the sales tax, you raised the gas tax and you raised taxes on families making over $150,000 a year. Is that the blueprint?

OMALLEY: Nancy, the blueprint in Maryland that we followed was yes, we did in fact raise the sales tax by a penny and we made our public schools the best public schools in America for five years in a row with that investment. And yes, we did ask everyone — the top 14 percent of earners in our state to pay more in their income tax and we were the only state to go four years in a row without a penny’s increase to college tuitions.

So while other candidates will talk about the things they would like to do, I actually got these things done in a state that defended not only a AAA bond rating, but the highest median income in America. I believe that we pay for many of the things that we need to do again as a nation, investing in the skills of our people, our infrastructure, and research and development and also climate change by the elimination of one big entitlement that we can no longer afford as a people, and that is the entitlement that many of our super wealthiest citizens feel they are entitled to pay — namely, a much lower income tax rate and a lower tax rate on capital gains.

I believe capital gains, for the most part, should be taxed the same way we tax income from hard work, sweat, and toil. And if we do those things, we can be a country that actually can afford debt-free college again.

CORDES: Senator Sanders, you want to make public college free altogether. You want to increase Social Security benefits and you want to spend $1 trillion on infrastructure. So you said that to do some of these things, you’ll impose a tax on top earners. How high would their rate go in a Sanders administration?

SANDERS: Let me put those proposals– and you’re absolutely right. That is what I want to do. That is what is going to have to happen, if we want to revitalize and rebuild the crumbling middle class.

In the last 30 years, there has been a massive redistribution of wealth. And I know that term gets my Republican friends nervous. The problem is, this redistribution has gone in the wrong direction. Trillions of dollars have gone from the middle class and working families to the top one-tenth of one percent who have doubled the percentage of wealth they now own.

Yes, I do believe that we must end corporate loopholes, such that major corporations year after year pay virtually zero in federal income tax, because they’re stashing the money in the Cayman Islands.

Yes, I do believe there must be a tax on Wall Street speculation. We bailed out Wall Street. It’s their time to bail out the middle class, help our kids be able to go to college tuition-free.

So we pay for this by do demanding that the wealthiest people and the largest corporations, who have gotten away with murder for years, start paying their fair share.

CORDES: But let’s get specific. How high would you go? You have said before you would go above 50 percent.

How high?

SANDERS: We haven’t come up with an exact number yet, but it will not be as high as the number under Dwight D. Eisenhower, which was 90 percent. But it will be…

(LAUGHTER)

I’m not that much of a socialist compared to Eisenhower.

(APPLAUSE)

But — but we are going to end the absurdity, as Warren Buffet often remind us.

O’MALLEY (?): That’s right.

SANDERS: That billionaires pay an effective tax rate lower than nurses or truck drivers. That makes no sense at all. There has to be real tax reform, and the wealthiest and large corporations will pay when I’m president.

O’MALLEY: And may I point out that under Ronald Reagan’s first term, the highest marginal rate was 70 percent. And in talking to a lot of our neighbors who are in that super wealthy, millionaire and billionaire category, a great numbers of them love their country enough to do more again in order to create more opportunity for America’s middle class.

CORDES: Secretary Clinton, Americans say that health care costs and wages are their top financial concerns. And health care deductibles, alone, have risen 67 percent over the past five years.

Is this something that Obamacare was designed to address? And if not, why not?

CLINTON: Well, look, I believe that we’ve made great progress as a country with the Affordable Care Act. We’ve been struggling to get this done since Harry Truman. And it was not only a great accomplishment of the Democratic Party, but of President Obama.

I do think that it’s important to defend it. The Republicans have voted to repeal it nearly 60 times. They would like to rip it up and start all over again, throw our nation back into this really contentious debate that we’ve had about health care for quite some time now.

I want to build on and improve the Affordable Care Act. I would certainly tackle the cost issues, because I think that once the foundation was laid with a system to try to get as many people as possible into it, to end insurance discrimination against people with preexisting conditions or women, for example, that, yes, we were going to have to figure out how to get more competition in the insurance market, how to get the costs of — particularly, prescription drugs, but other out-of-pocket expenses down.

But I think it’s important to understand there’s a significant difference that I have with Senator Sanders about how best to provide quality, affordable health care for everyone. And it’s– it’s a worthy debate. It’s an important one that we should be engaged in.

CORDES: It is — it is a worthy debate. Senator Sanders, a quick response, and then we’ll get into health care again later.

SANDERS: I am on the committee that helped write the Affordable Care Act. We have made some good progress.

Now what we have to take on is the pharmaceutical industry that is ripping off the American people every single day. I am proud that I was the first member of Congress to take Americans over the Canadian border to buy breast cancer drugs for one-tenth the price they were paying in the United States.

But at the end of the day, no doubt, the Affordable Care Act is a step forward. I think we all support it. I believe we’ve got to go further.

I want to end the international embarrassment of the United States of America being the only major country on earth that doesn’t guarantee health care to all people as a right, not a privilege.

(APPLAUSE)

And also — also, what we should be clear about is we end up spending — and I think the secretary knows this — far more per capita on health care than any other major country, and our outcomes, health care outcomes are not necessarily that good.

O’MALLEY: All right, Nancy, I really wish you’d come back to me on this on this one, John…

DICKERSON: All right, I am sorry, Governor, we’re going to have to go, I apologize.

O’MALLEY: Because we have found a way to reduce hospital costs, so whenever we come…

DICKERSON: Governor — Governor, you’re breaking the rules.

(LAUGHTER)

I’m sorry, we’re going to have to cut for a commercial. We’ll be right back here from Drake University here in Des Moines, Iowa.

O’MALLEY: Thank you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DICKERSON: There is a lot of presidential history here in Iowa. It hosted the first in the nation caucuses. Herbert Hoover was born in West Branch, and tonight, we are in Polk County, named for our 11th president, with three people who hope to be number 45.

Joining my now to question them are Iowans Kevin Cooney of KCCI and Kathie Obradovich, of the Des Moines Register.

Kevin?

COONEY: Thanks, John.

Candidates, we’ve already heard your answers on what you would do with Syrian refugees, but a crucial part of the immigration debate here at home is control of our own borders.

Republicans say the borders — securing borders is a top priority. Democrats say they want to plan for comprehensive immigration reform. So, Governor O’Malley, are you willing to compromise on this particular issue to focus on border security first in favor of keeping the country safe?

O’MALLEY: Well, Mr. Cooney, we’ve actually been focusing on border security to the exclusion of talking about comprehensive immigration reform.

In fact, if more border security and these — and more and more deportations were going to bring our Republican brothers and sisters to the table, it would have happened long ago. The fact of the matter is — and let’s say it in our debate, because you’ll never hear this from that immigration-bashing carnival barker, Donald Trump, the truth of the matter is…

(APPLAUSE)

The truth of the matter is, net immigration from Mexico last year was zero. Fact check me. Go ahead. Check it out. But the truth of the matter is, if we want wages to go up, we’ve got to get 11 million of our neighbors out of off the book shadow economy, and into the full light of an American economy.

That’s what our parents and grandparents always did. That’s what we need to do as a nation.

O’MALLEY: Yes, we must protect our borders. But there is no substitute for having comprehensive immigration reform with a pathway to citizenship for 11 million people, many of whom have known no other country but the United States of America. Our symbol is the Statue of Liberty. It is not a barbed wire fence.

COONEY: Thank you. Now, Secretary Clinton said you would go further than the President when it comes to taking executive action to implement immigration reforms. But the President’s already facing legal trouble on this. We’ve seen it more just in the past week. Realistically, how could you go further with executive action?

CLINTON: Well, first of all, I know that the President has appealed the decision to the Supreme Court. And my reading of the law and the Constitution convinces me that the President has the authority that he is attempting to exercise with respect to dreamers and their parents, because I think all of us on this stage agree that we need comprehensive immigration reform with a path to citizenship. Border security has always been a part of that debate. And it is a fact that the net immigration from Mexico and South has basically zeroed out.

So, what we want to do is to say, look, we have 11 million people who have been here, many of them for decades. They have children who are doing so well, I’ve met and worked with dreamers. I think any parent would be so proud of them. So let’s move toward what we should be doing as a nation and follow the values of our immigration history and begin to make it possible for them to come out of the shadows and to have a future that gives them a full chance of citizenship.

(APPLAUSE)

COONEY: Kathie.

OBRADOVICH: Senator Sanders, you’ve actually talked about immigration as being a wage issue in the United States. And I want to actually go directly to the wage issue now.

You called for raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour everywhere in the country. But the President’s former chair of the Council of Economic Advisers, Alan Krueger, has said a national increase of $15 could lead to undesirable and unintended consequences of job loss.

What level of job loss would you consider unacceptable?

SANDERS: Kathie, let me say this. You know, no public policy doesn’t have, in some cases, negative consequences. But at the end of the day, what you have right now are millions of Americans working two or three jobs because their wages that they are earning are just too low.

Real inflation accounted for wages has declined precipitously over the years. So I believe that, in fact, this country needs to move towards a living wage. It is not a radical idea to say that if somebody works 40 hours a week, that person should not be living in poverty. It is not a radical idea to say that a single mom should be earning enough money to take care of her kids. So I believe that over the next few years, not tomorrow, but over the next few years, we have got to move the minimum wage to a living wage, 15 bucks an hour. And I apologize to nobody for that.

OBRADOVICH: You said there are consequences…

(APPLAUSE)

OBRADOVICH: You said there are consequences for — for any policy. Do you think job losses are a consequence that are…

SANDERS: This is what I think — this is what many economists believe that one of the reasons that real unemployment in this country is 10 percent, one of the reasons that African American youth unemployment and underemployment is 51 percent is the average worker in America doesn’t have any disposable income.

You have no disposable income when you are make 10, 12 bucks an hour. When we put money into the hands of working people, they’re going to go out and buy goods, they’re going to buy services and they’re going to create jobs in doing that. Kathie, that is the kind of economy I believe, put money in the hands of working people, raise the minimum wage to 15 buck an hour.

O’MALLEY: Kathie, this was not merely theory in Maryland. We actually did it. Not only were we the first state in the nation to pass a living wage. We were the first to pass a minimum wage. And the U.S. chamber of commerce, which hardly ever says nice things about Democratic governors anywhere, named our state number one for innovation and entrepreneurship.

We defended the highest median income in the country. And so, look, the way that — a stronger middle class is actually the source of economic growth. And if our middle class makes more money, they spend more money, and our whole economy grows. We did it, and it worked, and nobody headed for the hills or left the state because of it.

OBRADOVICH: You’re calling for a $15 an hour wage now but why did you stop at $10.10 in your state?

O’MALLEY: $10.10 was all I could get the state to do by the time I left in my last year. But two of our counties actually went to $12.80 and their county executives, if they were here tonight, would also tell you that it works.

The fact of the matter is, the more our people earn, the more money they spend, and the more our whole economy grows. That’s American capitalism.

SANDERS: Let me just…

CLINTON: Kathie, I think — Kathie the…

SANDERS: Let me just add to that. Just because this is not an esoteric argument. You’re seeing cities like Seattle. You’re seeing cities like San Francisco, cities like Los Angeles doing it, and they are doing it well and workers are able to have more disposable income.

CLINTON: But I do take what Alan Krueger said seriously. He is the foremost expert in our country on the minimum wage, and what its effects are. And the overall message is that it doesn’t result in job loss. However, what Alan Krueger said in the piece you’re referring to is that if we went to $15, there are no international comparisons.

That is why I support a $12 national federal minimum wage. That is what the Democrats in the Senate have put forward as a proposal. But I do believe that is a minimum. And places like Seattle, like Los Angeles, like New York City, they can go higher. It’s what happened in Governor O’Malley’s state. There was a minimum wage at the state level, and some places went higher. I think that is…

O’MALLEY: Didn’t just happen.

CLINTON: I think that is the smartest way to be able to move forward because if you go to $12 it would be the highest historical average we’ve ever had.

O’MALLEY: Come on now. Yeah, but look. It should always be going up. Again, with all do respect to Secretary Clinton…

CLINTON: But you would index it — you would index it to the median wage. Of course, you would. Do the $12 and you would index it. But I…

O’MALLEY: I think we need to stop taking our advice from economists on Wall Street…

CLINTON: He’s not wall street.

O’MALLEY: … And start taking advice…

CLINTON: That’s not fair. He’s a progressive economist.

(CROSSTALK)

DICKERSON: You have — you have given me the perfect segue. We are going to talk about Wall Street, but now we’ve got to go do a commercial.

DICKERSON: We’re coming to the end of the first hour. But there’s another hour behind it and we’re going to talk about Wall Street so hang with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: Live from Drake University in Des Moines, Iowa, CBS News brings you the Democratic presidential debates. Here again, John Dickerson.

(APPLAUSE)

DICKERSON: Good evening again, as we begin the second half of the debate. Joining me in the questioning are the candidates — of the candidates are CBS news congressional correspondent Nancy Cordes, Kevin Cooney of CBS Des Moines affiliate KCCI, and Kathie Obradovich of the Des Moines register.

As those who watched the first hour know, our topic is Wall Street. For those just joining us, welcome. Senator — excuse me, Secretary Clinton, I went to the past there for a moment. Senator Sanders recently said, quote, “People should be suspect of candidates who receive large sums of money from Wall Street and then go out and say ‘Trust me. I’m going to really regulate wall street’.

So you’ve received millions of dollars in contributions and speaking fees from from Wall Street companies. How do you convince voters that you are going to level the playing field when you’re indebted to some of its biggest players?

CLINTON: Well, I think it’s pretty clear that they know that I will. You have two billionaire hedge fund managers who started a super PAC and they’re advertising against me in Iowa as we speak. So they clearly think I’m going to do what I say I will do and you can look at what I did in the Senate.

I did introduce legislation to reign in compensation. I looked at ways that the shareholders would have more control over what was going on in that arena. And specifically said to Wall Street, that what they were doing in the mortgage market was bringing our country down. I’ve laid out a very aggressive plan to reign in Wall Street — not just the big banks.

That’s a part of the problem and I am going right at them. I have a comprehensive, tough plan. But I went further than that. We have to go after what is called the shadow banking industry. Those hedge funds. Look at what happened in ’08, AIG, a big insurance company, Lehman Brothers, an investment bank helped to bring our economy down. So, I want to look at the whole problem and that’s why my proposal is much more comprehensive than anything else that’s been put forth.

DICKERSON: Senator Sanders you said that the donations to Secretary Clinton are compromising. So what did you think of her answer?

Sanders: Not good enough.

(APPLAUSE)

SANDERS: Here’s the story. I mean, you know, let’s not be naive about it. Why do — why, over her political career has Wall Street been a major — the major campaign contributor to Hillary Clinton? You know, maybe they’re dumb and they don’t know what they’re going to get, but I don’t think so.

Here is the major issue when we talk about Wall Street. It ain’t complicated. You have six financial institutions today that have assets of 56 percent, equivalent to 56 percent of the GDP In America. They issue two-thirds of the credit cards and one-third of the mortgages.

If Teddy Roosevelt, a good Republican, were alive today, you know what he’d say? “Break them up.” Reestablish Glass-Steagall. And Teddy Roosevelt is right. That is the issue. Now I am the only candidate up here that doesn’t have a super PAC. I am not asking Wall Street or the billionaires for money. I will break up these banks. Support community banks and credit unions. That’s the future of banking in America.

DICKERSON: Great follow up because you — and Secretary Clinton, you will get a chance to respond.

You said they know what they’re going to get. What are they going to get?

SANDERS: I have never heard a candidate never, who has received huge amounts of money from oil, from coal, from Wall Street, from the military industrial complex, not one candidate say, oh, these campaign contributions will not influence me. I’m going to be independent. Well, why do they make millions of dollars of campaign contributions? they expect to get something. Everybody knows that.

Once again, I am running a campaign differently than any other candidate. We are relying on small campaign donors, 750,000 of them, 30 bucks a piece. That’s who I’m indebted to.

CLINTON: Well John, wait a minute. Wait a minute, he has basically used his answer to impune my integrity. Let’s be frank here.

SANDERS: No, I have not. CLINTON: Oh, wait a minute, senator. You know, not only do I have hundreds of thousands of donors, most of them small. And I’m very proud that for the first time a majority of my donors are women, 60 percent.

(APPLAUSE)

CLINTON: So, I represented New York, and I represented New York on 9/11 when we were attacked. Where were we attacked? We were attacked in downtown Manhattan where Wall Street is. I did spend a whole lot of time and effort helping them rebuild. That was good for New York. It was good for the economy and it was a way to rebuke the terrorists who had attacked our country.

So, you know, it’s fine for you to say what you’re going to say, but I looked very carefully at your proposal. Reinstating Glass- Steagall is a part of what very well could help, but it is nowhere near enough. My proposal is tougher, more effective, and more comprehensive because I go after all of Wall Street not just the big banks.

O’ Malley: John, please, it’s– personal privilege, John.

DICKERSON: Hold on. He was attacked. ‘

(APPLAUSE)

O’ Malley: John, John,

DICKERSON: Hold on, he was attacked. Glass-Steagall…

(CROSSTALK)

SANDERS: So was I, John. Let me get a chance to respond. This issue touches on two broad issues. It’s not just Wall Street. It’s campaign — a corrupt campaign finance system. And it is easy to talk the talk about ending Citizens United, but what I think we need to do is show by example that we are prepared to not rely on large corporations and Wall Street for campaign contributions, and that’s what I’m doing.

In terms of Wall Street, I respectfully disagree with you, madam secretary, in the sense that the issue here is when you have such incredible power and such incredible wealth. When you have Wall Street spending $5 billion over a 10-year period to get — to get deregulated, the only answer they know is break them up, reestablish Glass-Stegall.

DICKERSON: All right. Senator, we have to get Governor O’ Malley in.

Governor, along with your answer, how many Wall Street veterans would you have in your administration?

O’ Malley: Well, I’ll tell you what, I’ve said this before. I don’t — I believe that we actually need some new economic thinking in the White House. And I would not have Robert Rubin or Larry Summers, with all due respect, Secretary Clinton, to you and to them, back on my council of economic advisers.

DICKERSON: Anyone from Wall Street?

O’ Malley: They are the architects. Sure, we’ll have an inclusive group but I won’t be taking my orders from Wall Street. And look, let me say this. I put out a proposal. I was on the front lines when people lost their homes, when people lost their jobs. I was on the front lines as a governor fighting against — fighting that battle.

Our economy was wrecked by the big banks of Wall Street. And Secretary Clinton, when you put out your proposal on Wall Street, it was greeted by many as, quote, unquote, “Weak tea”. It is weak tea. It is not what the people expect of our country.

We expect that our president will protect the main street economy from excesses on Wall Street. And that’s why Bernie’s right. We need to reinstate a modern version of Glass-Steagall and we should have done it already.

(APPLAUSE)

CLINTON: Well, you know, governor, I know that when you had a chance to appoint a commissioner for financial regulation, you chose an investment banker in 2010. So for me, it is looking at what works and what we need to do to try to move past what happened in ’08.

DICKERSON (?): Hear, hear.

CLINTON: And I will go back and say again, AIG was not a big bank. It had to be bailed out and it nearly destroyed us. Lehman Brothers was not a big bank. It was an investment bank. And its bankruptcy and its failure nearly destroyed us. So I’ve said, if the big banks don’t play by the rules, I will break them up.

SANDERS: The big banks–

CLINTON: And I will also go after executives who are responsible for the decisions that have such bad consequences for our country.

(APPLAUSE)

SANDERS: Look–

DICKERSON: Hold on.

SANDERS: I don’t know and with all due respect to the secretary, Wall Street played by the rules? Who are we kidding? The business model of Wall Street is fraud. That’s what it is.

(APPLAUSE)

SANDERS: And we have — and let me make this promise. One of the problems we have had — I think all Americans understand this, is whether it’s Republican administrations or Democratic administrations, we have seen Wall Street and Goldman Sachs dominate administrations. Here’s my promise– Wall Street representatives will not be in my cabinet.

(APPLAUSE)

DICKERSON: All right, I want to switch to the — switch to the issue of guns here.

Secretary Clinton, you said that Senator Sanders is not tough enough on guns, but basically he now supports roughly the same things you do. So can tell us what the exact difference is going forward between the two of you on the issue of gun control?

CLINTON: Well, I think that there are different records. I — you know, know that Senator Sanders had a different vote than I did when it came to giving immunity to gun makers and sellers. That was a terrible mistake. It basically gave the gun lobby even more power to intimidate legislators, not just in Washington but across the country.

But just think about this– since we last debated in Las Vegas, nearly 3,000 people have been killed by guns. Twenty-one mass shootings, including one last weekend in Des Moins where three were murdered. Two hundred children have been killed. This is an emergency. There are a lot of things we’ve got to do in our country, reigning in Wall Street is certainly one of them. I agree with that.

That’s why I’ve got such a good plan. But we have to also go after the gun lobby and 92 percent of Americans agree we should have universal background checks. Close the gun show loophole, close the online loophole and…

(APPLAUSE)

DICKERSON: Secretary Clinton, I want to…

CLINTON: I will do everything I can as president to get that accomplished.

DICKERSON: Secretary Clinton, just a quick follow-up. You say that Senator Sanders took a vote that — on immunity that you don’t like. So if he can be tattooed by a single vote and that ruins all future opinions by him on this issue, why then isn’t he right when he says your wrong vote on Iraq tattoos you forever in your judgment?

CLINTON: I — I said I made a mistake on Iraq, and I would love to see Senator Sanders join with some of my colleague in addition the Senate that I see in the audience. Let’s reverse the immunity. Let’s put the gun makers and sellers on notice that they’re not going to get away with it.

(APPLAUSE)

SANDERS: Let’s do more — let’s do more than reverse the immunity. Let’s…

DICKERSON: But was that a mistake, Senator?

SANDERS: Let me hear if there’s any difference between the Secretary and myself. I have voted time and again to — for — for the background check, and I want to see it improved and expanded. I want to see us do away with the gun show loophole.

In 1988, I lost an election because I said we should not have assault weapons on the streets of America. We have to do away with the strawman proposal. We need radical changes in mental health in America so somebody who is suicidal or homicidal can get the emergency care they need. We have — I don’t know that there’s any disagreement here…

O’MALLEY: Oh, yes there is.

(LAUGHTER)

SANDERS: We have got to come forward with a consensus that in fact will work.

DICKERSON: Senator, a mistake or not, your immunity vote? Quickly, before I go to…

SANDERS: There were parts of that bill which agree with parts — I disagree. I am certainly, absolutely, willing to look at that bill again and make sure there’s a stronger bill.

DICKERSON: So not a mistake?

O’MALLEY: John, this is another one of those examples. Like we have a — we have a lot of work to do and we’re the only nation on the planet that buries as many of our people from gun violence as we do.

In my own state, after the children in that Connecticut classroom were gunned down, we passed comprehensive gun safety legislation with background checks, ban on assault weapons, and Senator, I think we do need to repeal that immunity that you granted to the gun industry.

But Secretary Clinton, you’ve been on three sides of this. When you ran in 2000, you said that we needed federal robust regulations. Then, in 2008, you were portraying yourself as Annie Oakley and saying that we don’t need those regulations on the federal level and now you’re coming back around here.

So John, there’s a big difference between leading by polls and leading with principle. We got it done in my state by leading with principal and that’s what we need to do as a party for comprehensive gun safety.

SANDERS: With all — with all due respect…

(APPLAUSE)

SANDERS: I think it’s fair to say that Baltimore is not now one of the safest cities in America, but the issue is…

O’MALLEY: But it’s a lot safer. It’s saved a lot of lives along the way, Senator.

SANDERS: The issue is — I believe, and I believe this honestly, and I don’t know that there’s much difference on guns between us. But I believe coming from a state that has virtually no gun control, I believe that I am in position to reach out to the 60 or 70 percent of the American people who agree with us on those issues. The problem is…

DICKERSON: Hold on.

SANDERS: … people all over this country — not you, Secretary Clinton — are shouting at each other. And what we need to do is bring people together to work on the agreement where there is broad consensus and that’s what I intend to do.

(CROSSTALK)

O’MALLEY: I’d like to take a matter of personal privilege here…

CLINTON: But wait, I just want to say this Senator. There is broad consensus, 92 percent in the most recently poll of Americans want gun safety measures…

SANDERS: Absolutely.

CLINTON: … and 85 percent of gun owners agree.

SANDERS: Yes.

CLINTON: We’ve got the consensus, what we’re lacking is political leadership…

SANDERS: Yes.

CLINTON: … and that’s what you and others can start providing in the Senate.

(APPLAUSE)

SANDERS: Yes, I agree.

DICKERSON: Sorry. I’m going to bring in Nancy Cordes with a question from twitter about this exchange.

CORDES: There was a lot of conversation on twitter about guns, but also about your conversation on campaign finance.

And Secretary Clinton, one of the tweets we saw said this, “I’ve never seen a candidate invoke 9/11 to justify millions of Wall Street donations until now.” The idea being, yes, you were a champion of the community after 9/11, but what does that have to do with taking big donations?

CLINTON: Well, I’m sorry that whoever tweeted that had that impression because I worked closely with New Yorkers after 9/11 for my entire first term to rebuild. So, yes, I did know people. I’ve had a lot of folks give me donations from all kinds of backgrounds say, I don’t agree with you on everything, but I like what you do. I like how you stand up. I’m going to support you, and I think that is absolutely appropriate.

(APPLAUSE)

SANDERS: Well, I — if I might. I think the issue here is — and I applaud Secretary Clinton. She did. She’s the senator from New York. She worked — and many of us supported you — in trying to rebuild that devastation. But at the end of the day, Wall Street today has enormous economic and political power. Their business model is greed and fraud. And for the sake of our economy, they must — the major banks must be broken up.

CORDES: Hold on.

O’MALLEY: John, I think somewhere between…

CORDES: Senator Sanders — I’m sorry. Senator Sanders, but what is it in Secretary Clinton’s record that shows you that she’s been influenced by those donations?

(CROSSTALK)

SANDERS: Well, (inaudible) the major issue right now is whether or not we reestablish Glass-Steagall. I led the effort, unfortunately unsuccessfully, against deregulation because I knew when you merge large insurance companies and investment banks and commercial banks it was not going to be good. The issue now is do we break them ?up do we reestablish Glass-Steagall. And Secretary Clinton, unfortunately, is on the wrong side.

CLINTON: Well, I’ll tell you who is on my side. Paul Krugman, the Nobel Prize winning economist, who said my plan for what we should do to reign in Wall Street was more comprehensive and better. Paul Volcker, one of the leading lights of trying to reign in the excesses, has also said he does not support reinstating Glass-Steagall.

So, I mean this may seem like a bit of an arcane discussion. I have nothing against the passion that my two friends here have about reinstating Glass-Steagall. I just don’t think it would get the job done. I’m all about making sure we actually get results for whatever we do.

(APPLAUSE)

DICKERSON: Final word. Final word, Governor O’Malley, before we go to commercial.

O’MALLEY: John, there is not a serious economist who would disagree that the six big banks of Wall Street have taken on so much power and that all of us are still on the hook to bail them out on their bad bets. That’s not capitalism, Secretary Clinton. That’s crony capitalism. That’s a wonderful business model. If you place bad bets, the taxpayers bail you out. But if you place good ones, you pocket it.

O’MALLEY: Look, I don’t believe there’s the model — there’s lots of good people that work in finance, Secretary Sanders, but Secretary Clinton, we need to step up and we need to protect Main Street from Wall Street and you can’t do that by — by campaigning as the candidate of Wall Street. I am not the candidate of Wall Street…

SANDERS: Let me…

O’MALLEY: … and I encourage everybody watching this tonight to please, acknowledge that by going online at martinomalley.com and help me wage this campaign for real American capitalism.

(APPLAUSE)

DICKERSON: We have to — we have to go for a commercial, Senator. I’m sorry. We have to go for a commercial here. We’ll be right back with the Democratic debate here in Des Moines, Iowa on CBS.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DICKERSON: Back now in Des Moines with the candidates for the Democratic presidential nomination.

Senator Sanders, I want to start with you. Let’s say you’re elected president. Congratulations.

SANDERS: Thank you.

(APPLAUSE)

Looking forward to it.

DICKERSON: You’ve said you’ll have a revolution.

SANDERS: Yes.

DICKERSON: But there’s a conservative revolution going on in America right now. As John Boehner knows and as Democrats know, who have lost in state houses across the country.

SANDERS: Right.

DICKERSON: Those conservatives are watching tonight and probably shaking their heads. So how do you deal with that part of the country? The revolution’s already happening, but on the other side? SANDERS: And we are going to do a political revolution, which brings working people, young people, senior citizens, minorities together.

Because every issue that I am talking about– paid family and medical leave, breaking up the banks on Wall Street, asking the wealth to pay their fair share of taxes, rebuilding our crumbling infrastructure, raising the minimum wage to 15 bucks an hour — every one of those issues is supported by a significant majority of the American people.

The problem is, that as a result of a corrupt campaign finance system, Congress is not listening to the American people. Its listening to the big money interest.

What the political revolution is about is bringing people together to finally say, enough is enough. This government belongs to us. Not just the billionaires.

DICKERSON: Senator, as a 30-second follow-up, we’ve heard already tonight this figure, 92 percent of support for background checks.

Let’s look at that as an example. There was something 92 percent of the public was for. There had been these mass shootings. There was emotional support behind it.

SANDERS: Yes.

DICKERSON: Bipartisan support.

SANDERS: Yes.

DICKERSON: The president, the full force of his office.

SANDERS: Yeah.

DICKERSON: It went nowhere. That’s the model you’re talking about. Nothing happened.

SANDERS: What we need is leadership in this country which revitalizes American democracy, and makes people understand that if they stand up and fight back and take on the billionaire class, we can bring about the change that we need.

If we are not successful, if we continue the same old, same old of Washington being run by corporate lobbyists and big-money interests, nothing changes.

What I am very happy in this campaign that we have had rallies with tens of thousands of people, mostly young people. What the polls are showing is that we are actually defeating the secretary among younger people. We’re giving young people and working people hope that real change can take place in America.

That’s what the political revolution is about.

DICKERSON: A question from Kathie Obradovich.

OBRADOVICH: Yes, Senator Sanders, you famously said in the last debate that you were sick and tired of hearing about your damn e- mails. But then you told the Wall Street Journal that the question about whether or not Secretary Clinton’s e-mails compromised classified information were valid questions.

So which is it? Is it an issue or is it not?

SANDERS: No. That’s just media stuff.

I was sick and tired of Hillary Clinton’s e-mail. I am still sick and tired of Hillary Clinton’s e-mails.

(LAUGHTER)

And the issue is, the problem is, the front pages every day were dealing with it. I didn’t know I had so much power. But after I said that, we’re not hearing so much about Hillary Clinton’s e-mails.

CLINTON (?): What part is valid?

SANDERS: What I would like for the media now is for us to be talking about why the middle class is disappearing, why we have more people in jail than any other country, why we have massive levels of income and wealth inequality, and we’re the only major country on Earth without paid family and medical leave.

We’ve gotten off the Hillary’s e-mails, good. Let’s go to the major issues facing America.

(APPLAUSE)

O’MALLEY (?): Let me just…

OBRADOVICH: I’m sorry, I couldn’t hear you.

Secretary Clinton, your response.

CLINTON: I agree completely.

(APPLAUSE)

I couldn’t have said it better myself. But I did want to — I wanted to follow up.

Look, we need more Americans to be involved in the political process. And I give Senator Sanders a lot of credit for really lighting a fire under many people — young, old, everybody — who sees a chance to be involved and have their voice heard.

Look at what’s happening with the Republicans. They are doing everything they can to prevent the voices of Americans to be heard.

(APPLAUSE) They’re trying to prevent people from registering to vote. So, we do need to take on the Republicans very clearly and directly. But the other thing I just wanted quickly to say is, I think President Obama deserves more credit than he gets for what he got done in Washington, despite the Republican obstructionists.

(APPLAUSE)

DICKERSON: Secretary Clinton, just one more question on the e- mail question.

For Democrats, there’s an FBI investigation going on. Can you satisfy Democrats, who might worry about an another shoe dropping, that you and your staff have been totally truthful to them, and that another shoe is not going to drop?

CLINTON: I think after 11 hours, that’s pretty clear, yes.

(APPLAUSE)

And, you know, I do think it’s important to do exactly what Senator Sanders said, and that is to start talking about the issues that the American people really care about, and that they talk to each of us about.

And to contrast, even — there are differences among us. You’ve heard some of those tonight. I still want to get back to health care, because I think that’s a worthy topic to explore.

But the differences among us pale compared to what’s happening on the Republican side. And if you listen to what they say — and I had a chance over those 11 hours to watch and listen, as well as what I see in their debates — they are putting forth alarming plans.

I mean, all of us support funding Planned Parenthood. All of us believe climate change is real. All of us want equal pay for equal work.

They don’t believe in any of that. So let’s focus on what this election is really going to be about.

(APPLAUSE)

DICKERSON: Race relations is another issue everyone cares about, and we’re going to switch to that now.

Governor O’Malley, let me ask you a question. The head of the FBI recently said it might be possible that some police forces are not enforcing the law, because they’re worried about being caught on camera. The acting head of the drug enforcement administration said a similar thing.

Where are you on this question? And what would do you if you were president, and two top members of your administration were floating that idea? O’MALLEY: John, I think the — I think the call of your question is how can we improve both public safety in America and race relations in America, understanding how very intertwined both of those issues are in a very, very difficult and painful way for us as a people.

Look, the truth of the matter is that we should all feel a sense of responsibility as Americans to look for the things that actually work to save and redeem lives, and to do more of them, and to stop doing the things that don’t.

For my part, that’s what I have done in 15 years of experience as a mayor and as a governor. We restored voting rights to 52,000 people. We decriminalized possession of small amounts of marijuana.

I repealed the death penalty. And we also put in place a civilian review board. We reported openly discourtesy, and lethal force and brutality complaints.

This is something that — and I put forward a new agenda for criminal justice reform that is informed by that experience. So as president, I would lead these efforts, and I would do so with more experience and probably the attendance at more grave sites than any of the three of us on this stage when it comes to urban crime, loss of lives.

And the truth is I have learned on a very daily basis that, yes, indeed, black lives matter.

DICKERSON: All right, Governor…

(APPLAUSE)

Senator Sanders, one of your former colleagues, an African- American member of Congress, said to me recently that a young African- American man had asked him where to find hope in life. And he said, “I just don’t know what to tell him about being young and black in America today.”

What would you tell that young African-American man?

SANDERS: Well, this is what I would say, and the Congressman was right. According to the statistics that I’m familiar with, a black male baby born today stands a one in four chance of ending up in the criminal justice system.

Fifty-one percent of high school African-American graduates are unemployed or underemployed.

We have more people in jail today than any other country on earth. We’re spending $80 billion locking people up, disproportionately Latino and African American.

We need, very clearly, major, major reform in a broken criminal justice system. From top to bottom. And that means when police officers out in a community do illegal activity — kill people who are unarmed who should not be killed, they must be held accountable. It means that we end minimum sentencing for those people arrested. It means that we take marijuana out of the federal law as a crime and give states the freedom to go forward with legalizing marijuana.

DICKERSON: Secretary Clinton, you told some Black Lives Matter activists recently that there’s a difference between rhetoric in activism and what you were trying to do, was — get laws passed that would help what they were pushing for.

But recently, at the University of Missouri, that activism was very, very effective. So would you suggest that kind of activism take place at other universities across the country?

CLINTON: Well, John, I come from the ’60s, a long time ago. There was a lot of activism on campus — Civil Rights activism, antiwar activism, women’s rights activism — and I do appreciate the way young people are standing up and speaking out.

Obviously, I believe that on a college campus, there should be enough respect so people hear each other. But what happened at the university there, what’s happening at other universities, I think reflects the deep sense of, you know, concern, even despair that so many young people, particularly of color, have…

You know, I recently met with a group of mothers who lost their children to either killings by police or random killings in their neighborhoods, and hearing their stories was so incredibly, profoundly heartbreaking. Each one of them, you know, described their child, had a picture. You know, the mother of the young man with his friends in the car who was playing loud music and, you know, some older white man pulled out a gun and shot him because they wouldn’t turn the radio down.

Or a young woman who had been performing at President Obama’s second inauguration coming home, absolutely stellar young woman, hanging out with her friends in a park getting shot by a gang member.

And, of course, I met the mothers of Eric Garner and Tamir Rice, and Michael Brown and Trayvon Martin and so many of them who have lost their children.

So, your original question is the right question. And it’s not just a question for parents and grandparents to answer. It’s really a question for all of us to answer, every single one of our children deserves the chance to live up to his or her god-given potential. And that’s what we need to be doing to the best of our ability in our country.

DICKERSON: All right, over to Kevin Cooney.

COONEY: Senator — Senator Sanders, we’ve heard a lot about this, your offer — you want to offer free tuition to public universities and colleges.

A couple of questions about this. 63 percent of those who enroll graduate.

First question, isn’t this throwing a lot of money away if we’re looking at a third of these people are not going to complete college?

SANDERS: No, it is not throwing — it is an extraordinary investment for this country.

Germany, many other countries do it already. In fact, if you remember, 50, 60 years ago, the University of California, City University of New York were virtually tuition-free.

Here is the story — it’s not just the college graduates should be $50,000 or $100,000 in debt. More importantly, I want kids in Burlington, Vermont, or Baltimore, Maryland, who are in the sixth grade or the eighth grade, who don’t have a lot of money, whose parents — like my parents — may never have gone to college.

Do you know where I’m going, Kevin? I want those kids to know that if they study hard, they do their homework, regardless of the income of their families, they will in fact be able to get a college education because we are going to make public colleges and universities tuition-free. This is revolutionary for education in America. It will give hope to millions of young people.

COONEY: Well, one of the things you want to do is to have the states pay for about a third of this $70 billion plan, correct?

SANDERS: Yes.

COONEY: There are 16 states that are running budget deficits right now. Where are are they expected to come up with this?

SANDERS: Well, I think that they’re be pretty smart, because I think a lot of the states will do the right thing, and I think those states that don’t will pay a heavy penalty.

Bottom line here is, in the year 2015, we should look at a college degree the same way we looked at a high school degree 50 or 60 years ago.

If you want to make it into the middle class — I’m not saying in all cases — we need plumbers, and we need carpenters, and electricians, that’s for sure, and they should get help as well. But bottom line now, is in America, in the year 2015, any person who has the ability and the desire should be able to get an education, college education, regardless of the income of his or her family. And we must substantially lower, as my legislation does, interest rates on student debt.

COONEY: Governor O’Malley, jump in now.

O’MALLEY: Okay, thank you. I have — look, I would agree with much of what Senator Sanders says, Kevin.

I believe that actually affordable college, debt-free college is the goal that we need to attain as a nation. And, unlike my two distinguished colleagues on this stage, I actually made college more affordable and was the only state that went four years in a row without a penny’s increase to college tuition.

I respectfully disagree with Senator Sander’s approach. I believe that the goal should be debt-free college. I believe that our Federal Government needs to do more on pell grants. States need to stop cutting higher education, and we should create a new block grant program that keeps the states’ skin in the game, and we should lower these outrageous interest rates that parents and kids are being charged by their own government. 7 percent and 8 percent to go to college?

I mean, my dad went to college on a G.I. Bill after coming home from Japan, flying 33 missions. My daughters went to college on a mountain of bills.

We were proud of them on graduation day, but we’re going to be proud every month for the rest of our natural lives. It — it doesn’t need to be that way. We can have debt-free college in the United States.

CLINTON: Kevin, if I could just jump in. I — I believe that we should make community college free. We should have debt-free college if you go to a public college or university. You should not have to borrow a dime to pay tuition. I want to use pell grants to help defray the living expenses that often make a difference, whether a young person can stay in school or not.

I disagree with free college for everybody. I don’t think taxpayers should be paying to send Donald Trump’s kids to college. I think it ought to be a compact — families contribute, kids contribute. And together we make it possible for a new generation of young people to refinance their debt and not come out with debt in the future.

COONEY: All right, Nancy Cordes has a question.

CORDES: Back to health care, by popular demand. First to you, Senator Sanders.

You’d prefer to scrap Obamacare and move to a single-payer system, essentially Medicare for all.

You say you want to put the private insurance companies out of business. Is it realistic to think that you can pull the plug on a $1 trillion industry?

SANDERS: It’s not going to happen tomorrow. And it’s probably not going to happen until we have real campaign finance reform and get rid of all these superpacs, and the power of the insurance companies and the drug companies.

But at the end of the day, Nancy, here is the question — in this great country of ours, with so much intelligence and so much capability, why do we remain the only major country on earth that does not guarantee health care to all people as a right? Why do we continue to get ripped off by the drug companies who can charge us any prices they want? Why is it that we are spending per capita far, far more than Canada, which is 100 miles away from my door, that guarantees health care to all people?

It will not happen tomorrow. But when millions of people stand up and are prepared to take on the insurance companies and the drug companies, it will happen, and I will lead that effort.

Medicare for all, single-payer system is the way we should go.

CORDES: Secretary Clinton, back in — Secretary Clinton, back in 1994, you said that momentum for a single-payer system would sweep the country. That sounds Sanders-esque. But you don’t feel that way anymore, why not?

CLINTON: No. Revolution never came. I waited and I got the scars to show for it.

We now have this great accomplishment known as the Affordable Care Act, and I don’t think we should have to be defending it among Democrats. We ought to be working to improve it and prevent Republicans from both underming it and even repealing it.

I have looked at — I have looked at the legislation that Senator Sanders has proposed, and basically, he does eliminate the Affordable Care Act, eliminates private insurance, eliminates Medicare, eliminates Medicaid, Tricare, children’s health insurance program — puts it all together in a big program which he then hands over to the states to administer.

And I have to tell you, I would not want — if I lived in Iowa, Terry Branstad administering my health care. I — I think — I think as Democrats we ought to proudly support the Affordable Care Act, improve it, and make it the model that we know it can be.

SANDERS: Well, let me just say something.

DICKERSON: Thirty seconds.

SANDERS: We don’t eliminate Medicare. We expand Medicare to all people. And we will not, under this proposal, have a situation that we have right now with the Affordable Care Act where you have states like South Carolina, and many other Republican states, that because of their right wing political ideology, are denying millions of people the expansion of Medicaid that we passed in the Affordable Care Act. Ultimately, we have got to say as a nation, Secretary Clinton, is health care a right of all people or is it not? I believe it is a right.

O’ MALLEY: May I jump in here for 30 seconds on health care?

DICKERSON: I’m sorry, governor. We’ve got to take a break or the machine breaks down. You’re watching the Democratic debate here on CBS.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DICKERSON: We begin the final segment of this debate with something none of you saw coming. Something quite unexpected. Soon after your inauguration, you will face a crisis. All presidents do. What crisis you have experienced in your life that suggests you’ve been testd and can face that inevitable challenge? Secretary Clinton, you first.

CLINTON: Well, there are so many, I don’t know where to start.

(LAUGHTER)

CLINTON: I guess the one I — I would pick is the fact that I was part of a very small group that had to advise the president about whether or not to go after Bin Laden. I spent a lot of time in the situation room as secretary of state and there were many very difficult choices presented to us.

But probably that was the most challenging because there was no certainty attached to it. The intelligence was by no means absolute. We had all kinds of questions that we discussed and, you know, at the end, I recommended to the president that we take the chance to do what we could to find out whether that was bin Laden and to finally bring him to justice.

It was an excruciating experience. I couldn’t talk to anybody about it. In fact, after it happened, the president called my husband — he called all the former presidents and he said to Bill, “Well I assume Hillary has told you about this.” And Bill said, “No, no, she hasn’t.” There was nobody to talk to and it really did give me an insight into the very difficult problems presidents face.

DICKERSON: Governor O’ Malley, what crisis proves that you’re tested?

O’ MALLEY: John, I don’t think that there is a crisis at the state or local level that really you can point to and say, therefore, I am prepared for the sort of crises that any man or woman who is commander in chief of our country has to deal with.

But I can tell you this. I can tell you that as a mayor and as a governor, I learned certain disciplines which I believe are directly applicable to that very, very powerful and most important of all jobs in the United States, the president, whose first and primary duty is to protect the people of our country.

You learn that threats always change. You learn to create a security cabinet. You learn to create feedback mechanisms. You learn to constantly evaluate and understand the nature of the threats that you are being faced with.

I have been tried under many different emergencies and I can tell you that in each of those emergencies, whether they were inflicted by drug gangs, whether they were natural emergencies, I knew how to lead and I knew how to govern because I know how to manage people in a crisis and be very clear about the goal of protecting human life.

DICKERSON: Senator Sanders what, experience would you draw on in a crisis?

SANDERS: John, I had the honor of being chairman of the U.S. Senate committee on Veterans’ Affairs for two years. And in that capacity, I met with just an extraordinary group of people from World War II, from korea, vietnam, all of the wars. People came back from Iraq and Afghanistan without legs, without arms.

And I was determined to do everything that I could to make VA health care the best in the world, to expand benefits to the men and women who put their lives on the line to defending.

We brought together legislation supported by the American Legion, the VFW, the DOD, Vietnam Vets, all of the veterans organizations, which was comprehensive. Clearly the best piece of veterans’ legislation brought forth in decades.

I could only get two Republican votes on that. We ended up with 56 votes. We needed 60. So what I had to do then is go back and start working on a bill that wasn’t the bill that I wanted. Sit down with people like John Mccain. Sit down with people like Jeff Miller, the Republican chairman of the house, and work on a bill.

It wasn’t the bill that I wanted, but yet it turned out to be one of the more significant pieces of veterans’ legislation passed in recent history. So the crisis was I lost what I wanted. But I had to stand up and come back and get the best that we could.

DICKERSON: All right, Senator Sanders…

(APPLAUSE)

DICKERSON: We’ve ended the evening on crisis, which underscores and reminds us again of what happened last night. Now, let’s move to closing statements.

Governor O’Malley, you’re first.

O’MALLEY: John, thank you, and to all of the people in Iowa, for the role you have performed in this presidential selection process.

If you believe that our country’s problems and the threats that we face in this world can only be met with new thinking, new and fresh approaches, then I ask you to join my campaign.

Go on to martinomalley.com. No hour is too short, no dollar too small. If you — we will not solve our nation’s problems by resorting to the divisive ideologies of our past, or by returning to polarizing figures from our past.

We are at the threshold of a new era of American progress, but it’s going to require that we act as Americans, based on our principles, here at home, making an economy that works for all of us. And, also, acting according to our principles and constructing a new foreign policy of engagement and collaboration, and doing a much better job of identifying threats before they back up into military corners.

O’MALLEY: There is no challenge too great for the United States to confront, provided we have the ability and the courage to put forward new leadership that can move us to those better and safer and more prosperous days. I need your help. Thank you very, very much.

(APPLAUSE)

DICKERSON: Secretary Clinton?

CLINTON: Well, thank you very much to CBS and everyone here this evening for giving us another chance to appear before you. I’ve heard a lot about me in this debate, and I’m going to keep talking and thinking about all of you because ultimately, I think the president’s job is to do everything possible, everything that she can do to lift up the people of this country.

(APPLAUSE)

Starting with our children and moving forward. I’ve spent my entire life, since I started as a young lawyer for the Children’s Defense Fund, trying to figure out how we can even the odds for so many people in America, this great country of ours, who are behind, who don’t have a chance.

And that’s what I will do as your president. I will work my heart out. I need your help. All of you in Iowa, I need you to caucus for me. Please go to hillaryclinton.com and be part of making this country what we know it can and should be.

(APPLAUSE)

DICKERSON: Senator Sanders?

SANDERS: John — John, this country today has more income and wealth inequality than any major country on Earth. We have a corrupt campaign finance system dominated by Super PACs. We are the only major country on Earth that doesn’t guarantee healthcare to all people. We have the highest rate of childhood poverty, and we’re the only country in the world — virtually the only country that doesn’t guarantee paid family and medical leave.

That’s not the America that I think we should be. But in order to bring about the changes that we need, we need a political revolution. Millions of people are going to have to stand up, turn off the TV, get involved in the political process and tell the big- money interest that we are taking back our country. Please go to berniesanders.com. Please become part of the political revolution. Thank you.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DICKERSON: And the candidates are thanking each other for a good debate. Clinton, Sanders and O’Malley now two debates in the books, with four more to come.

So, Major Garrett, how did they do tonight and what’s getting the most talked about on Twitter?

Major Garrett is with us in “The Spin Alley.?

MAJOR GARRETT: So, John, our partnership with Twitter reveals the most talked about moments for each of the three candidates.

Now, when you’re having this kind of conversation, it doesn’t mean it’s all good. It could be good and bad. But it’s what drove the conversation most — in order, Hillary Clinton, when she defended her integrity on campaign contributions and mentioned 60 percent of her donors are women. That was her biggest spike moment.

For Bernie Sanders, it’s when we called Dwight D. Eisenhower a noted socialist for referring to his income tax brackets being very high, and much higher than they are now.

Martin O’Malley’s big spike moment was when he called Donald Trump an “immigrant-bashing carnival barker.” Remember that, as a two-phased (inaudible) from Martin O’Malley — “immigrant bashing carnival barker” for Donald Trump. Those were the three spike moments for the three candidates as recorded by twitter.

Our partnership with them has revealed the most interesting moments of conversation as defined by the three candidates — John.

DICKERSON: Thanks so much, Major Garrett. Thanks to all of you for joining for this Democratic presidential debate hosted by Drake University in Des Moines, Iowa. CBS News will bring you a debate among the Republican candidates on February 13 from Greenville, South Carolina. I will have much more about the presidential race and the Paris attacks tomorrow on Face the Nation. Our guests include Senator Sanders.

And you can see more post-debate coverage on our 24-hour digital news network CBSN. It’s available on all devices at cbsnews.com.

For my CBS news colleagues, Major Garrett and Nancy Cordes, Kevin Cooney from KCCI, and Kathie Obradovich of the Des Moines Register, and with thanks to all the folks here at Drake for their hospitality, I’m John Dickerson. Good night.
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Full Text Campaign Buzz 2016 October 13, 2015: CNN Democratic Presidential Debate Transcript Hillary Clinton Wins

ELECTION 2016

CampaignBuzz2016

CAMPAIGN BUZZ 2016

Transcript: Read the Full Text of the Primetime Democratic Debate

Source: Time, 10-13-15 

The Democratic presidential candidates met in Las Vegas for a primetime debate on CNN.

At the debate were former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders, former Maryland Gov. Martin O’Malley, former Virginia Sen. Jim Webb and former Rhode Island Gov. Lincoln Chafee.

The moderators were CNN anchors Anderson Cooper and Don Lemon, political correspondent Dana Bash and CNN en Espanol anchor Juan Carlos Lopez.

Here is a full transcript of what they said, courtesy of CNN.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: And good evening everyone. We are live at the Wynn Resort in Las Vegas for the CNN/Facebook Democratic Presidential Debate. Welcome.

(APPLAUSE)

The five major candidates are about to face off for the first time in a primary race that is a lot more competitive than many people had expected.

Welcome. I’m Anderson Cooper. Thanks for joining us. We’re just seconds away from introducing the candidates to viewers in the United States and watching right now around the world.

This debate is airing on CNN, CNN en Espanol, and CNN International. It’s also being broadcast on the Westwood One Radio Network. I’ll be the moderator tonight. I’ll also be joined in the questioning by my CNN colleagues, our chief political correspondent, Dana Bash; CNN en Espanol anchor Juan Carlos Lopez, and CNN anchor Don Lemon who will share questions from Democrats nationwide.

We’ve teamed up with Facebook to send a campaign camper around the country for the past three weeks. Thousands of people stepped inside to record their questions for the candidates on video. Millions more have weighed in on Facebook. Now it’s time to meet the candidates.

Joining us on stage, please welcome former Rhode Island Governor Lincoln Chafee.

(APPLAUSE)

Former Maryland Governor Martin O’Malley.

(APPLAUSE)

Former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.

(APPLAUSE)

Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont.

(APPLAUSE)

And former Senator Jim Webb of Virginia.

(APPLAUSE)

Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome the Democratic candidates for president of the United States.

(APPLAUSE)

Now, everybody, please rise for our national anthem, performed by nine-time Grammy Award-winning singer-songwriter, Sheryl Crow.

(SINGING)

(APPLAUSE)

COOPER: I want to thank Sheryl Crow. The candidates are here. The crowd is certainly ready. The first Democratic debate will begin right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: There is certainly a lot of excitement in this room tonight, and no doubt around the country. We are back in the Wynn Resort in Las Vegas in the presidential battleground state of Nevada for the first Democratic debate of the 2016 campaign.

I’m Anderson Cooper. Thanks for joining us. We’ve already welcomed the candidates on stage. They are in place at their podiums. Before we dive into the issues, I want to quickly explain some of the groundrules tonight.

As the moderator, I’ll ask questions, followups and guide the discussion. I’ll be joined in the questioning by CNN’s Juan Carlos Lopez and Dana Bash, a well as Don Lemon who will share questions from Democrats around the country. Each candidate will get one minute to answer questions, and 30 seconds for followups and rebuttals. I’ll give candidates time to respond if they have been singled out for criticism.

Our viewers should know that we have lights that are visible to the candidates to warn them when their time is up.

I want the candidates to be able to introduce themselves to our audience. Each candidate will have two minutes to introduce themselves.

Let’s begin with Governor Chafee.

Governor?

FORMER GOV. LINCOLN CHAFEE, D-R.I.: Thank you, Anderson.

Thank you, CNN, and thank you Facebook for organizing this debate.

Not only will Americans be electing a new president next year, we also will be electing a world leader. Voters should assess the candidate’s experience, character and vision for the future as they make this important decision.

I’m the only one running for president that has been a mayor, a United States senator, and a governor. As mayor, I brought labor peace to my city and kept taxes down. I was reelected three times. As a senator, I earned a reputation for courageous votes against the Bush-Cheney tax cuts the favored the wealthy, against the tragedy of the Iraq war, for environmental stewardship, for protection of our civil liberties. I served on the Foreign Relations Committee and I chaired the Middle East Subcommittee for four years.

As governor, I came in at the depths of the recession and we turned my state around. Rhode Island had the biggest drop of the unemployment rate over my four budgets of all but one state. It happens to be Nevada, where we’re having this debate. I’m very proud that over my almost 30 years of public service, I have had no scandals. I’ve always been honest. I have the courage to take the long-term view, and I’ve shown good judgment. I have high ethical standards.

As we look to the future, I want to address the income inequality, close the gap between the haves and the have-nots. I want to address climate change, a real threat to our planet. And I believe in prosperity through peace. I want to end these wars.

I look forward to the discussion ahead.

Thank you (APPLAUSE)

COOPER: Thank you very much, Governor.

(APPLAUSE)

Senator Webb, you have two minutes.

FORMER SEN. JIM WEBB, D-VA.: Thank you.

You know, people are disgusted with the way that money has corrupted our political process, intimidating incumbents and empowering Wall Street every day, the turnstile government that we see, and also the power of the financial sector in both parties.

WEBB: They’re looking for a leader who understands how the system works, who has not been coopted by it, and also has a proven record of accomplishing different things. I have a record of working across the political aisle. I’ve also spent more than half of my professional life away from politics in the independent world of being an author, a journalist, and a sole proprietor.

In government service, I’ve fought and bled for our country in Vietnam as a Marine. I spent years as Assistant Secretary of Defense, Secretary of the Navy — in the Reagan administration.

In the senate, I spoke about economic fairness and social justice from day one. I also wrote and passed the best piece of veterans education legislation in history, the Post 9/11 G.I. Bill. I brought criminal justice reform out of the political shadows and into the national discussion. I led what later became called the Strategic Pivot to Asia two years before President Obama was elected.

I know where my loyalties are.

My mother grew up in the poverty of east Arkansas chopping cotton, picking strawberries. Three of her seven siblings died in childhood. My wife, Hong, came to this country as a refugee from war torn Vietnam — learned English, a language that was not spoken at home, and earned her way into Cornell Law School. I have five daughters. Amy works with disabled veterans, Sarah is an emergency room nurse, Julia is a massage therapist, Emily and Georgia are still in school. My son Jim fought as an infantry Marine on the bloody streets of Ramadi.

You may be sure that in a Webb administration, the highest priority will be the working people who every day go out and make this country stronger at home, and who give us the right reputation and security overseas under a common sense foreign policy.

(CHEERING) (APPLAUSE)

COOPER: Governor O’Malley, you have two minutes.

FORMER GOV. MARTIN O’MALLEY, D-MD.: My name is Martin O’Malley, former Mayor of Baltimore, former governor of Maryland, a life long democrat, and most importantly, a husband, and a father.

My wife Katie and I have four great kids, Grace, and Tara, and William and Jack. And, like you, there is nothing we wouldn’t do to give them healthier and better lives. There are some things that I have learned to do better in life than others. And, after 15 years of executive experience, I have learned how to be an effective leader.

Whether it was raising the minimum wage, making our public schools the best in America, passing marriage equality, the DREAM Act, and comprehensive gun safety legislation, I have learned how to get things done because I am very clear about my principals.

Thanks to President Obama, our country has come a long way since the Wall Street crash of 2008. Our country’s doing better, we are creating jobs again. But we elected a president, not a magician, and there is urgent work that needs to be done right now. For there is a — deep injustice, an economic injustice that threatens to tear our country apart, and it will not solve itself. Injustice does not solve itself.

What I’m talking about is this, our middle class is shrinking. Our poor families are becoming poorer, and 70 percent of us are earning the same, or less than we were 12 years ago. We need new leadership, and we need action. The sort of action that will actually make wages go up again for all American families.

Our economy isn’t money, it’s people. It’s all of our people, and so we must invest in our country, and the potential of our kids to make college a debt free option for all of our families, instead of settling our kids with a lifetime of crushing debt.

And, we must square our shoulders to the great challenge of climate change and make this threat our opportunity. The future is what we make of it. We are all in this together. And, the question in this election is whether you and I still have the ability to give our kids a better future. I believe we do, that is why I am running for president, and I need your help.

Thank you.

(APPLAUSE)

COOPER: Governor O’Malley, thank you very much. Senator Sanders.

SEN. BERNARD SANDERS, I-VT.: Anderson, thank you very much. I think most Americans understand that our country today faces a series of unprecedented crises. The middle class of this country for the last 40 years has been disappearing. Millions of Americans are working longer hours for lower wages, and yet almost all of the new income and wealth being created is going to the top one percent.

As a result of this disastrous Citizens United Supreme Court decision, our campaign finance system is corrupt and is undermining American democracy. Millionaires and billionaires are pouring unbelievable sums of money into the political process in order to fund super PACs and to elect candidates who represent their interests, not the interests of working people.

Today, the scientific community is virtually unanimous: climate change is real, it is caused by human activity, and we have a moral responsibility to transform our energy system away from fossil fuel to energy efficiency and sustainable energy and leave this planet a habitable planet for our children and our grandchildren.

Today in America, we have more people in jail than any other country on Earth. African-American youth unemployment is 51 percent. Hispanic youth unemployment is 36 percent. It seems to me that instead of building more jails and providing more incarceration, maybe — just maybe — we should be putting money into education and jobs for our kids.

(APPLAUSE)

What this campaign is about is whether we can mobilize our people to take back our government from a handful of billionaires and create the vibrant democracy we know we can and should have. Thank you.

(APPLAUSE)

COOPER: Secretary Clinton?

FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON: Well, thank you, and thanks to everyone for hosting this first of the Democratic debates.

I’m Hillary Clinton. I have been proud and privileged to serve as first lady, as a senator from New York, and as secretary of state. I’m the granddaughter of a factory worker and the grandmother of a wonderful one-year-old child. And every day, I think about what we need to do to make sure that opportunity is available not just for her, but for all of our children. I have spent a very long time — my entire adult life — looking for ways to even the odds to help people have a chance to get ahead, and, in particular, to find the ways for each child to live up to his or her God-given potential.

I’ve traveled across our country over the last months listening and learning, and I’ve put forward specific plans about how we’re going to create more good-paying jobs: by investing in infrastructure and clean energy, by making it possible once again to invest in science and research, and taking the opportunity posed by climate change to grow our economy.

At the center of my campaign is how we’re going to raise wages. Yes, of course, raise the minimum wage, but we have to do so much more, including finding ways so that companies share profits with the workers who helped to make them.

And then we have to figure out how we’re going to make the tax system a fairer one. Right now, the wealthy pay too little and the middle class pays too much. So I have specific recommendations about how we’re going to close those loopholes, make it clear that the wealthy will have to pay their fair share, and have a series of tax cuts for middle-class families.

And I want to do more to help us balance family and work. I believe in equal pay for equal work for women, but I also believe it’s about time we had paid family leave for American families and join the rest of the world.

(APPLAUSE)

During the course of the evening tonight, I’ll have a chance to lay out all of my plans and the work that I’ve done behind them. But for me, this is about bringing our country together again. And I will do everything I can to heal the divides — the divides economically, because there’s too much inequality; the racial divides; the continuing discrimination against the LGBT community — so that we work together and, yes, finally, fathers will be able to say to their daughters, you, too, can grow up to be president.

(APPLAUSE)

COOPER: Thank you, all. It is time to start the debate.

Are you all ready?

(APPLAUSE)

All right. Let’s begin. We’re going to be discussing a lot of the issues, many of the issues, important issues that you have brought up. But I want to begin with concerns that voters have about each of the candidates here on this stage that they have about each of you.

Secretary Clinton, I want to start with you. Plenty of politicians evolve on issues, but even some Democrats believe you change your positions based on political expediency.

You were against same-sex marriage. Now you’re for it. You defended President Obama’s immigration policies. Now you say they’re too harsh. You supported his trade deal dozen of times. You even called it the “gold standard”. Now, suddenly, last week, you’re against it.

Will you say anything to get elected?

CLINTON: Well, actually, I have been very consistent. Over the course of my entire life, I have always fought for the same values and principles, but, like most human beings — including those of us who run for office — I do absorb new information. I do look at what’s happening in the world.

You know, taker the trade deal. I did say, when I was secretary of state, three years ago, that I hoped it would be the gold standard. It was just finally negotiated last week, and in looking at it, it didn’t meet my standards. My standards for more new, good jobs for Americans, for raising wages for Americans.

And I want to make sure that I can look into the eyes of any middle-class American and say, “this will help raise your wages.” And I concluded I could not.

COOPER: Secretary Clinton, though, with all due respect, the question is really about political expediency. Just in July, New Hampshire, you told the crowd you’d, quote, “take a back seat to no one when it comes to progressive values.”

Last month in Ohio, you said you plead guilty to, quote, “being kind of moderate and center.” Do you change your political identity based on who you’re talking to? CLINTON: No. I think that, like most people that I know, I have a range of views, but they are rooted in my values and my experience. And I don’t take a back seat to anyone when it comes to progressive experience and progressive commitment.

You know, when I left law school, my first job was with the Children’s Defense Fund, and for all the years since, I have been focused on how we’re going to un-stack the deck, and how we’re going to make it possible for more people to have the experience I had.

You know, to be able to come from a grandfather who was a factory worker, a father who was a small business person, and now asking the people of America to elect me president.

COOPER: Just for the record, are you a progressive, or are you a moderate?

CLINTON: I’m a progressive. But I’m a progressive who likes to get things done. And I know…

(APPLAUSE)

…how to find common ground, and I know how to stand my ground, and I have proved that in every position that I’ve had, even dealing with Republicans who never had a good word to say about me, honestly. But we found ways to work together on everything from…

COOPER: Secretary…

CLINTON: …reforming foster care and adoption to the Children’s Health Insurance Program, which insures…

COOPER: …thank you…

CLINTON: …8 million kids. So I have a long history of getting things done, rooted in the same values…

COOPER: …Senator…

CLINTON: …I’ve always had.

COOPER: Senator Sanders. A Gallup poll says half the country would not put a socialist in the White House. You call yourself a democratic socialist. How can any kind of socialist win a general election in the United States?

SANDERS: Well, we’re going to win because first, we’re going to explain what democratic socialism is.

And what democratic socialism is about is saying that it is immoral and wrong that the top one-tenth of 1 percent in this country own almost 90 percent — almost — own almost as much wealth as the bottom 90 percent. That it is wrong, today, in a rigged economy, that 57 percent of all new income is going to the top 1 percent.

That when you look around the world, you see every other major country providing health care to all people as a right, except the United States. You see every other major country saying to moms that, when you have a baby, we’re not going to separate you from your newborn baby, because we are going to have — we are going to have medical and family paid leave, like every other country on Earth.

Those are some of the principles that I believe in, and I think we should look to countries like Denmark, like Sweden and Norway, and learn from what they have accomplished for their working people.

(APPLAUSE)

COOPER: Denmark is a country that has a population — Denmark is a country that has a population of 5.6 million people. The question is really about electability here, and that’s what I’m trying to get at.

You — the — the Republican attack ad against you in a general election — it writes itself. You supported the Sandinistas in Nicaragua. You honeymooned in the Soviet Union. And just this weekend, you said you’re not a capitalist.

Doesn’t — doesn’t that ad write itself?

SANDERS: Well, first of all, let’s look at the facts. The facts that are very simple. Republicans win when there is a low voter turnout, and that is what happened last November.

Sixty-three percent of the American people didn’t vote, Anderson. Eighty percent of young people didn’t vote. We are bringing out huge turnouts, and creating excitement all over this country.

Democrats at the White House on down will win, when there is excitement and a large voter turnout, and that is what this campaign is doing.

COOPER: You don’t consider yourself a capitalist, though?

SANDERS: Do I consider myself part of the casino capitalist process by which so few have so much and so many have so little by which Wall Street’s greed and recklessness wrecked this economy? No, I don’t.

I believe in a society where all people do well. Not just a handful of billionaires.

(APPLAUSE)

COOPER: Just let me just be clear. Is there anybody else on the stage who is not a capitalist?

CLINTON: Well, let me just follow-up on that, Anderson, because when I think about capitalism, I think about all the small businesses that were started because we have the opportunity and the freedom in our country for people to do that and to make a good living for themselves and their families.

And I don’t think we should confuse what we have to do every so often in America, which is save capitalism from itself. And I think what Senator Sanders is saying certainly makes sense in the terms of the inequality that we have.

But we are not Denmark. I love Denmark. We are the United States of America. And it’s our job to rein in the excesses of capitalism so that it doesn’t run amok and doesn’t cause the kind of inequities we’re seeing in our economic system.

But we would be making a grave mistake to turn our backs on what built the greatest middle class in the history…

COOPER: Senator Sanders?

CLINTON: … of the world.

(APPLAUSE)

SANDERS: I think everybody is in agreement that we are a great entrepreneurial nation. We have got to encourage that. Of course, we have to support small and medium-sized businesses.

But you can have all of the growth that you want and it doesn’t mean anything if all of the new income and wealth is going to the top 1 percent. So what we need to do is support small and medium-sized businesses, the backbone of our economy, but we have to make sure that every family in this country gets a fair shake…

COOPER: We’re going to get…

SANDERS: … not just for billionaires.

COOPER: We’re going to have a lot more on these issues. But I do want to just quickly get everybody in on the question of electability.

Governor Chafee, you’ve been everything but a socialist. When you were senator from Rhode Island, you were a Republican. When you were elected governor, you were an independent. You’ve only been a Democrat for little more than two years. Why should Democratic voters trust you won’t change again?

CHAFEE: Anderson, you’re looking at a block of granite when it comes to the issues. Whether it’s…

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: It seems like pretty soft granite. I mean, you’ve been a Republican, you’ve been an independent.

CHAFEE: Did you hear what I said? On the issues. I have not changed on the issues. I was a liberal Republican, then I was an independent, and now I’m a proud Democrat. But I have not changed on the issues.

And I open my record to scrutiny. Whether it’s on the environment, a woman’s right to choose, gay marriage, fiscal responsibility, aversion to foreign entanglements, using the tools of government to help the less fortunate.

Time and time again, I have never changed. You’re looking at a block of granite when it comes to the issues. So I have not changed.

COOPER: Then why change labels?

CHAFEE: The party left me. There’s no doubt about that. There was no room for a liberal moderate Republican in that party. I even had a primary for my reelection in 2006. I won it. But the money poured in to defeat me in Rhode Island as a Republican. That’s what we were up against.

COOPER: Governor O’Malley, the concern of voters about you is that you tout our record as Baltimore’s mayor. As we all know, we all saw it. That city exploded in riots and violence in April.

The current top prosecutor in Baltimore, also a Democrat, blames your zero tolerance policies for sowing the seeds of unrest. Why should Americans trust you with the country when they see what’s going on in the city that you ran for more than seven years?

O’MALLEY: Yes, actually, I believe what she said was that there’s a lot of policies that have led to this unrest.

But, Anderson, when I ran for mayor of Baltimore in 1999…

COOPER: She actually — just for the record, when she was asked which policies, to name two, she said zero tolerance. I mean, there’s a number of old policies that we’re seeing the results of. That distress of communities, where communities don’t want to step forward and say who killed a 3-year-old, it’s a direct result of these failed policies.

O’MALLEY: Well, let’s talk about this a little bit. One of the things that was not reported during that heartbreaking night of unrest in Baltimore was that arrests had actually fallen to a 38-year low in the year prior to the Freddie Gray’s tragic death.

Anderson, when I ran for mayor of Baltimore back in 1999, it was not because our city was doing well. It was because we allowed ourselves to become the most violent, addicted, and abandoned city in America.

And I ran and promised people that together we could turn that around. And we put our city on a path to reduce violent crime, or part one (ph) crime by more than any other major city in America over the next 10 years.

I did not make our city immune to setbacks. But I attended a lot of funerals, including one for a family of seven who were firebombed in their sleep for picking up the phone in a poor African-American neighborhood and calling the police because of drug dealers on their corner.

We’ve saved over a thousand lives in Baltimore in the last 15 years of people working together. And the vast majority of them were young and poor and black. It wasn’t easy on any day. But we saved lives and we gave our city a better future, improving police and community relations every single day that I was in office.

COOPER: In one year alone, though, 100,000 arrests were made in your city, a city of 640,000 people. The ACLU, the NAACP sued you, sued the city, and the city actually settled, saying a lot of those arrests were without probable cause.

O’MALLEY: Well, I think the key word in your followup there was the word “settle.” That’s true. It was settled. Arrests peaked in 2003, Anderson, but they declined every year after that as we restored peace in our poorer neighborhoods so that people could actually walk and not have to worry about their kids or their loved ones of being victims of violent crime.

Look, none of this is easy. None of us has all the answers. But together as a city, we saved a lot of lives. It was about leadership. It was about principle. And it was about bringing people together.

COOPER: Thank you, Governor.

O’MALLEY: Thank you. COOPER: Senator Webb, in 2006, you called affirmative action “state-sponsored racism.” In 2010, you wrote an op/ed saying it discriminates against whites. Given that nearly half the Democratic Party is non-white, aren’t you out of step with where the Democratic Party is now?

WEBB: No, actually I believe that I am where the Democratic Party traditionally has been. The Democratic Party, and the reason I’ve decided to run as a Democrat, has been the party that gives people who otherwise have no voice in the corridors of power a voice. And that is not determined by race.

And as a clarification, I have always supported affirmative action for African Americans. That’s the way the program was originally designed because of their unique history in this country, with slavery and the Jim Crow laws that followed. What I have discussed a number of times is the idea that when we create diversity programs that include everyone, quote, “of color,” other than whites, struggling whites like the families in the Appalachian mountains, we’re not being true to the Democratic Party principle of elevating the level of consciousness among our people about the hardships that a lot of people who happen to be have — by culture, by the way.

COOPER: Senator Webb, thank you very much.

Let’s move on to some of the most pressing issues facing our country right now, some of the biggest issues right now in the headlines today. We’re going to start with guns. The shooting in Oregon earlier this month, once again it brought the issue of guns into the national conversation. Over the last week, guns have been the most discussed political topic on Facebook by two to one.

Senator Sanders, you voted against the Brady bill that mandated background checks and a waiting period. You also supported allowing riders to bring guns in checked bags on Amtrak trains. For a decade, you said that holding gun manufacturers legally responsible for mass shootings is a bad idea. Now, you say you’re reconsidering that. Which is it: shield the gun companies from lawsuits or not?

SANDERS: Let’s begin, Anderson, by understanding that Bernie Sanders has a D-minus voting rating (ph) from the NRA. Let’s also understand that back in 1988 when I first ran for the United States Congress, way back then, I told the gun owners of the state of Vermont and I told the people of the state of Vermont, a state which has virtually no gun control, that I supported a ban on assault weapons. And over the years, I have strongly avoided instant background checks, doing away with this terrible gun show loophole. And I think we’ve got to move aggressively at the federal level in dealing with the straw man purchasers.

Also I believe, and I’ve fought for, to understand that there are thousands of people in this country today who are suicidal, who are homicidal, but can’t get the healthcare that they need, the mental healthcare, because they don’t have insurance or they’re too poor. I believe that everybody in this country who has a mental crisis has got to get mental health counseling immediately. COOPER: Do you want to shield gun companies from lawsuits?

SANDERS: Of course not. This was a large and complicated bill. There were provisions in it that I think made sense. For example, do I think that a gun shop in the state of Vermont that sells legally a gun to somebody, and that somebody goes out and does something crazy, that that gun shop owner should be held responsible? I don’t.

On the other hand, where you have manufacturers and where you have gun shops knowingly giving guns to criminals or aiding and abetting that, of course we should take action.

COOPER: Secretary Clinton, is Bernie Sanders tough enough on guns?

CLINTON: No, not at all. I think that we have to look at the fact that we lose 90 people a day from gun violence. This has gone on too long and it’s time the entire country stood up against the NRA. The majority of our country…

(APPLAUSE)

… supports background checks, and even the majority of gun owners do.

Senator Sanders did vote five times against the Brady bill. Since it was passed, more than 2 million prohibited purchases have been prevented. He also did vote, as he said, for this immunity provision. I voted against it. I was in the Senate at the same time. It wasn’t that complicated to me. It was pretty straightforward to me that he was going to give immunity to the only industry in America. Everybody else has to be accountable, but not the gun manufacturers. And we need to stand up and say: Enough of that. We’re not going to let it continue.

(APPLAUSE)

COOPER: We’re going to bring you all in on this. But, Senator Sanders, you have to give a response.

SANDERS: As a senator from a rural state, what I can tell Secretary Clinton, that all the shouting in the world is not going to do what I would hope all of us want, and that is keep guns out of the hands of people who should not have those guns and end this horrible violence that we are seeing.

I believe that there is a consensus in this country. A consensus has said we need to strengthen and expand instant background checks, do away with this gun show loophole, that we have to address the issue of mental health, that we have to deal with the strawman purchasing issue, and that when we develop that consensus, we can finally, finally do something to address this issue.

COOPER: Governor O’Malley, you passed gun legislation as governor of Maryland, but you had a Democratic-controlled legislature. President Obama couldn’t convince Congress to pass gun legislation after the massacres in Aurora, in Newtown, and Charleston. How can you?

O’MALLEY: And, Anderson, I also had to overcome a lot of opposition in the leadership of my own party to get this done. Look, it’s fine to talk about all of these things — and I’m glad we’re talking about these things — but I’ve actually done them.

We passed comprehensive gun safety legislation, not by looking at the pollings or looking at what the polls said. We actually did it. And, Anderson, here tonight in our audience are two people that make this issue very, very real. Sandy and Lonnie Phillips are here from Colorado. And their daughter, Jessie, was one of those who lost their lives in that awful mass shooting in Aurora.

Now, to try to transform their grief, they went to court, where sometimes progress does happen when you file in court, but in this case, you want to talk about a — a rigged game, Senator? The game was rigged. A man had sold 4,000 rounds of military ammunition to this — this person that killed their daughter, riddled her body with five bullets, and he didn’t even ask where it was going.

And not only did their case get thrown out of court, they were slapped with $200,000 in court fees because of the way that the NRA gets its way in our Congress and we take a backseat. It’s time to stand up and pass comprehensive gun safety legislation as a nation.

(APPLAUSE)

COOPER: Senator Sanders, I want you to be able to respond, 30 seconds.

SANDERS: I think the governor gave a very good example about the weaknesses in that law and I think we have to take another look at it. But here is the point, Governor. We can raise our voices, but I come from a rural state, and the views on gun control in rural states are different than in urban states, whether we like it or not.

Our job is to bring people together around strong, commonsense gun legislation. I think there is a vast majority in this country who want to do the right thing, and I intend to lead the country in bringing our people together.

O’MALLEY: Senator — Senator, excuse me.

(CROSSTALK)

O’MALLEY: Senator, it is not about rural — Senator, it was not about rural and urban.

SANDERS: It’s exactly about rural.

O’MALLEY: Have you ever been to the Eastern Shore? Have you ever been to Western Maryland? We were able to pass this and still respect the hunting traditions of people who live in our rural areas.

SANDERS: Governor…

O’MALLEY: And we did it by leading with principle, not by pandering to the NRA and backing down to the NRA.

SANDERS: Well, as somebody who has a D-minus voting record…

(CROSSTALK)

O’MALLEY: And I have an F from the NRA, Senator.

SANDERS: I don’t think I am pandering. But you have not been in the United States Congress.

O’MALLEY: Well, maybe that’s a healthy thing.

(LAUGHTER)

SANDERS: And when you want to, check it out. And if you think — if you think that we can simply go forward and pass something tomorrow without bringing people together, you are sorely mistaken.

COOPER: Let me bring in somebody who has a different viewpoint. Senator Webb, your rating from the NRA, you once had an A rating from the NRA. You’ve said gun violence goes down when more people are allowed to carry guns. Would encouraging more people to be armed be part of your response to a mass shooting?

WEBB: Look, there are two fundamental issues that are involved in this discussion. We need to pay respect to both of them. The first is the issue of who should be kept from having guns and using firearms. And we have done not a good job on that.

A lot of them are criminals. And a lot of the people are getting killed are members of gangs inside our urban areas. And a lot of them are mentally incapacitated. And the shooting in Virginia Tech in ’07, this individual had received medical care for mental illness from three different professionals who were not allowed to share the information.

So we do need background checks. We need to keep the people who should not have guns away from them. But we have to respect the tradition in this country of people who want to defend themselves and their family from violence.

COOPER: Senator…

WEBB: May I? People are going back and forth here for 10 minutes here. There are people at high levels in this government who have bodyguards 24 hours a day, seven days a week. The average American does not have that, and deserves the right to be able to protect their family.

COOPER: Senator — Governor Chafee, you have an F rating from the NRA, what do you think about what Senator Webb just said?

CHAFEE: Yes, I have a good record of voting for gun commonsense safety legislation, but the reality is, despite these tragedies that happen time and time again, when legislators step up to pass commonsense gun safety legislation, the gun lobby moves in and tells the people they’re coming to take away your guns.

And, they’re successful at it, in Colorado and others states, the legislators that vote for commonsense gun safety measures then get defeated. I even saw in Rhode Island. So, I would bring the gun lobby in and say we’ve got to change this. Where can we find common ground? Wayne Lapierre from the NRA, whoever it is, the leaders. Come one, we’ve go to change this. We’re not coming to take away your guns, we believe in the Second Amendment, but let’s find common ground here.

COOPER: I want to…

O’MALLEY: …Anderson, when the NRA wrote to everyone in our state — when the NRA wrote to members in our state and told people with hunting traditions lies about what our comprehensive gun safety legislation is, I wrote right back to them and laid out what it actually did. And that’s why, not only did we pass it, but the NRA didn’t…

SANDERS: …Excuse me…

O’MALLEY: …dare to petition a referendum…

SANDERS: …I want to make…

O’MALLEY: …Because we built a public consensus… COOPER: …I want to move on to another issue, which is in the headlines right now, another crisis making headlines.

Secretary Clinton, Russia, they’re challenging the U.S. in Syria. According to U.S. intelligence, they’ve lied about who they’re bombing. You spearheaded the reset with Russia. Did you underestimate the Russians, and as president, what would your response to Vladimir Putin be right now in Syria?

CLINTON: Well, first of all, we got a lot of business done with the Russians when Medvedev was the president, and not Putin. We got a nuclear arms deal, we got the Iranian sanctions, we got an ability to bring important material and equipment to our soldiers in Afghanistan.

There’s no doubt that when Putin came back in and said he was going to be President, that did change the relationship. We have to stand up to his bullying, and specifically in Syria, it is important — and I applaud the administration because they are engaged in talks right now with the Russians to make it clear that they’ve got to be part of the solution to try to end that bloody conflict.

And, to — provide safe zones so that people are not going to have to be flooding out of Syria at the rate they are. And, I think it’s important too that the United States make it very clear to Putin that it’s not acceptable for him to be in Syria creating more chaos, bombing people on behalf of Assad, and we can’t do that if we don’t take more of a leadership position, which is what I’m advocating.

COOPER: Senator Sanders, what would you do differently.

SANDERS: Well, let’s understand that when we talk about Syria, you’re talking about a quagmire in a quagmire. You’re talking about groups of people trying to overthrow Assad, other groups of people fighting ISIS. You’re talking about people who are fighting ISIS using their guns to overthrow Assad, and vice versa.

I’m the former chairman of the Senate Veterans Committee, and in that capacity I learned a very powerful lesson about the cost of war, and I will do everything that I can to make sure that the United States does not get involved in another quagmire like we did in Iraq, the worst foreign policy blunder in the history of this country. We should be putting together a coalition of Arab countries who should be leading the effort. We should be supportive, but I do not support American ground troops in Syria.

COOPER: On this issue of foreign policy, I want to go to…

CLINTON: …Well, nobody does. Nobody does, Senator Sanders.

COOPER: I want to go to Dana Bash. Dana?

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Governor Chafee, you were the only Republican in the Senate to vote against the Iraq war. You say Secretary Clinton should be disqualified from the presidency because she voted in favor of using force in Iraq. She has since said that her vote was a mistake. Why isn’t that good enough? CHAFEE: Well, we just heard Senator Sanders say that it’s the worst decision in American history. That’s very significant, the worst decision in American history, I just heard from Senator Sanders.

So, as we look ahead, if you’re going to make those poor judgment calls, a critical time in our history, we just finished with the Vietnam era, getting back into another quagmire — if you’re looking ahead, and you’re looking at someone who made that poor decision in 2002 to go into Iraq when there was no real evidence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq — I know because I did my homework, and, so, that’s an indication of how someone will perform in the future. And that’s what’s important.

(APPLAUSE)

BASH: Secretary Clinton, he’s questioning your judgment.

CLINTON: Well, I recall very well being on a debate stage, I think, about 25 times with then Senator Obama, debating this very issue. After the election, he asked me to become Secretary of State.

He valued my judgment, and I spent a lot of time with him…

(APPLAUSE)

…in the Situation Room, going over some very difficult issues.

You know, I — I agree completely. We don’t want American troops on the ground in Syria. I never said that. What I said was we had to put together a coalition — in fact, something that I worked on before I left the State Department — to do, and yes, that it should include Arabs, people in the region.

Because what I worry about is what will happen with ISIS gaining more territory, having more reach, and, frankly, posing a threat to our friends and neighbors in the region and far beyond.

So I think while you’re talking about the tough decision that President Obama had to make about Osama bin Laden, where I was one of his few advisers, or putting together that coalition to impose sanctions on Iran — I think I have a lot of evidence…

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: Senator Sanders — Senator Sanders, I want to bring you in here. My question for you is, as a congressman, you voted against the Iraq War. You voted against the Gulf War. You’re just talking about Syria, but under what circumstances would a President Sanders actually use force?

SANDERS: Let me just respond to something the secretary said. First of all, she is talking about, as I understand it, a no-fly zone in Syria, which I think is a very dangerous situation. Could lead to real problems.

Second of all, I heard the same evidence from President Bush and Dick Cheney and Don Rumsfeld about why we should overthrow Saddam Hussein and get involved in the — I would urge people to go to berniesanders.com, hear what I said in 2002. And I say, without any joy in my heart, that much of what I thought would happen about the destabilization, in fact, did happen.

So I think… BASH: All right.

(APPLAUSE)

SANDERS: I think the president is trying very hard to thread a tough needle here, and that is to support those people who are against Assad, against ISIS, without getting us on the ground there, and that’s the direction I believe we should have (inaudible).

COOPER: But, Senator Sanders, you didn’t answer the question. Under what — under what circumstances would you actually use force?

SANDERS: Well, obviously, I voted, when President Clinton said, “let’s stop ethnic cleansing in Kosovo,” I voted for that. I voted to make sure that Osama bin Laden was held accountable in Afghanistan.

When our country is threatened, or when our allies are threatened, I believe that we need coalitions to come together to address the major crises of this country. I do not support the United States getting involved in unilateral action.

(UNKNOWN): You’re at work with our allies.

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: I’m gonna bring you all in on this. Governor — Governor O’Malley, Secretary Clinton…

SANDERS: I don’t believe that any…

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: Secretary Clinton voted to authorize military force in Iraq, supported more troops in Afghanistan. As Secretary of State, she wanted to arm Syrian rebels and push for the bombing of Libya. Is she too quick to use military force?

O’MALLEY: Anderson, no president — no commander in chief — should take the military option off the table, even if most of us would agree that it should be the last option.

What disturbed people so much about — and I would agree with Senator Sanders on this — leading us into Iraq under false pretenses and telling us, as a people, that there were weapons of mass destruction there was — was one of the worst blunders in modern American history.

But the reason why people remain angry about it is because people feel like a lot of our legislators got railroaded in a war fever and by polls. And I remember being at a dinner shortly before that invasion. People were talking at — and saying, “it’ll take us just a couple years to rebuild democracy,” and I thought, “has this world gone mad?”

Whenever we go — and contrary to John Quincy Adams’ advice — “searching the world for monsters to destroy,” and when we use political might to take a — at the expense of democratic principle, we hurt ourselves, and we hurt our (inaudible).

COOPER: Does she — does she want to use military force too rapidly?

O’MALLEY: I believe that, as president, I would not be so quick to pull for a military tool. I believe that a no-fly zone in Syria, at this time, actually, Secretary, would be a mistake.

You have to enforce no-fly zones, and I believe, especially with the Russian air force in the air, it could lead to an escalation because of an accident that we would deeply regret.

I support President Obama. I think we have to play a long game, and I think, ultimately — you want to talk about blunders? I think Assad’s invasion of Syria will be seen as a blunder.

COOPER: Governor O’Malley, just for the record, on the campaign trail, you’ve been saying that Secretary Clinton is always quick for the — for the military intervention. Senator — Secretary Clinton, you can respond.

CLINTON: Well, first of all, I…

WEBB: Anderson, can I come into this discussion at some point?

COOPER: Well — yes, you’ll be coming in next, but she was directly quoted, Senator.

WEBB: Thank you. I’ve been standing over here for about ten minutes, trying.

COOPER: OK.

WEBB: It’s just — it’s gone back and forth over there.

COOPER: Secretary?

CLINTON: Well, I am in the middle, here, and…

(LAUGHTER)

Lots of things coming from all directions.

WEBB: You got the lucky (inaudible).

CLINTON: You know, I have to say, I was very pleased when Governor O’Malley endorsed me for president in 2008, and I enjoyed his strong support in that campaign. And I consider him, obviously, a friend.

Let me say — because there’s a lot of loose talk going on here — we are already flying in Syria just as we are flying in Iraq. The president has made a very tough decision. What I believe and why I have advocated that the no-fly zone — which of course would be in a coalition — be put on the table is because I’m trying to figure out what leverage we have to get Russia to the table. You know, diplomacy is not about getting to the perfect solution. It’s about how you balance the risks.

COOPER: Thank you.

CLINTON: And I think we have an opportunity here — and I know that inside the administration this is being hotly debated — to get that leverage to try to get the Russians to have to deal with everybody in the region and begin to move toward a political, diplomatic solution in Syria.

COOPER: Thank you, Secretary.

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: Senator Webb, you said as president you would never have used military force in Libya and that the attack on the U.S. consulate in Benghazi was, in your words, “inevitable.” Should Secretary Clinton have seen that attack coming?

WEBB: Look, let’s start — I’ve been trying to get in this conversation for about 10 minutes — let’s start with why Russia is in Syria right now. There are three strategic failings that have allowed this to occur. The first was the invasion of Iraq, which destabilized ethnic elements in Iraq and empowered Iran. The second was the Arab Spring, which created huge vacuums in Libya and in Syria that allowed terrorist movements to move in there. And the third was the recent deal allowing Iran to move forward and eventually acquire a nuclear weapon, which sent bad signals, bad body language into the region about whether we are acquiescing in Iran becoming a stronger piece of the formula in that part of the world.

Now, I say this as someone who spent five years in the Pentagon and who opposed the war in Iraq, whose son fought in Iraq, I’ve fought in Vietnam. But if you want a place where we need to be in terms of our national strategy, a focus, the greatest strategic threat that we have right now is resolving our relationship with China. And we need to do this because of their aggression in the region. We need to do it because of the way they treat their own people.

COOPER: Senator…

WEBB: And I would say this. I’ve been waiting for 10 minutes. I will say this.

COOPER: You’re over your time as of now.

WEBB: I will — well, you’ve let a lot of people go over their time. I would say this…

COOPER: You agreed to these debate rules.

WEBB: … to the unelected, authoritarian government of China: You do not own the South China Sea. You do not have the right to conduct cyber warfare against tens of millions of American citizens. And in a Webb administration, we will do something about that.

COOPER: Senator Sanders, I want you to be able to respond. SANDERS: Pardon me?

COOPER: I’d like you to be able to respond and get in on this.

SANDERS: Well, I think Mr. Putin is going to regret what he is doing. I think that when he gets into that…

COOPER: He doesn’t seem to be the type of guy to regret a lot.

SANDERS: Well, I think he’s already regretting what he did in Crimea and what he is doing in the Ukraine. I think he is really regretting the decline of his economy. And I think what he is trying to do now is save some face. But I think when Russians get killed in Syria and when he gets bogged down, I think the Russian people are going to give him a message that maybe they should come home, maybe they should start working with the United States to rectify the situation now.

COOPER: Secretary Clinton, on the campaign trail, Governor Webb has said that he would never have used military force in Libya and that the attack on the U.S. consulate in Benghazi was inevitable. Should you have seen that attack coming?

CLINTON: Well, let’s remember what was going on. We had a murderous dictator, Gadhafi, who had American blood on his hands, as I’m sure you remember, threatening to massacre large numbers of the Libyan people. We had our closest allies in Europe burning up the phone lines begging us to help them try to prevent what they saw as a mass genocide, in their words. And we had the Arabs standing by our side saying, “We want you to help us deal with Gadhafi.”

Our response, which I think was smart power at its best, is that the United States will not lead this. We will provide essential, unique capabilities that we have, but the Europeans and the Arabs had to be first over the line. We did not put one single American soldier on the ground in Libya. And I’ll say this for the Libyan people.

COOPER: But American citizens did lose their lives in Benghazi.

CLINTON: But let — I’ll get to that. But I think it’s important, since I understand Senator Webb’s very strong feelings about this, to explain where we were then and to point out that I think President Obama made the right decision at the time.

And the Libyan people had a free election the first time since 1951. And you know what, they voted for moderates, they voted with the hope of democracy. Because of the Arab Spring, because of a lot of other things, there was turmoil to be followed.

But unless you believe the United States should not send diplomats to any place that is dangerous, which I do not, then when we send them forth, there is always the potential for danger and risk.

COOPER: Governor O’Malley?

WEBB: Can I…

(CROSSTALK)

O’MALLEY: Anderson, I think we are learning…

(CROSSTALK)

O’MALLEY: Anderson, I think there’s lessons to be learned from Benghazi. And those lessons are that we need to do a much better job as a nation of having human intelligence on the ground so that we know who the emerging next generation leaders are that are coming up to replace a dictator when his time on this planet ends.

And I believe that’s what Chris Stevens was trying to do. But he did not have the tools. We have failed as a country to invest in the human intelligence that would allow us to make not only better decisions in Libya, but better decisions in Syria today.

And it’s a huge national security failing.

COOPER: Senator Webb, I want you to be able to respond.

WEBB: Thank you.

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: Senator Webb? WEBB: This is not about Benghazi per se. To me it is the inevitability of something like Benghazi occurring in the way that we intervened in Libya. We had no treaties at risk. We had no Americans at risk. There was no threat of attack or imminent attack.

There is plenty of time for a president to come to the Congress and request authority to use military force in that situation. I called for it on the Senate floor again and again. I called for it in Senate hearings.

It is not a wise thing to do. And if people think it was a wise thing to do, try to get to the Tripoli airport today. You can’t do it.

COOPER: Secretary (sic) Webb, you served in Vietnam. You’re a marine. Once a marine, always a marine. You served as a marine in Vietnam. You’re a decorated war hero. You eventually became secretary of the navy.

During the Vietnam War, the man standing next to you, Senator Sanders, applied for status as a conscientious objector. Given his history, can he serve as a credible commander-in-chief?

WEBB: Everybody makes their decisions when the time there is conscription. And as long as they go through the legal process that our country requires, I respect that. And it would be for the voters to decide whether Senator Sanders or anyone else should be president.

I will say this, coming from the position that I’ve come from, from a military family, with my brother a marine, my son was a marine in Iraq, I served as a marine, spending five years in the Pentagon, I am comfortable that I am the most qualified person standing up here today to be your commander-in-chief.

COOPER: Senator Sanders, tell an American soldier who is watching right now tonight in Afghanistan why you can be commander-in- chief given that you applied for conscientious objector status.

SANDERS: Well, first of all, let me applaud my good friend Jim Webb for his service to this country in so many ways.

(APPLAUSE)

SANDERS: Jim and I, under Jim’s leadership, as he indicated, passed the most significant veterans education bill in recent history. We followed suit with a few years later passing, under my leadership, the most significant veterans’ health care legislation in the modern history of this country.

(APPLAUSE)

SANDERS: When I was a young man — I’m not a young man today. When I was a young man, I strongly opposed the war in Vietnam. Not the brave men like Jim who fought in that war, but the policy which got us involved in that war. That was my view then.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

SANDERS: I am not a pacifist, Anderson. I supported the war in Afghanistan. I supported President Clinton’s effort to deal with ethnic cleansing in Kosovo. I support air strikes in Syria and what the president is trying to do.

Yes, I happen to believe from the bottom of my heart that war should be the last resort that we have got to exercise diplomacy. But yes, I am prepared to take this country into war if that is necessary.

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: Very quickly, 30 seconds for each of you. Governor Chafee, who or what is the greatest national security threat to the United States? I want to go down the line.

CHAFEE: OK. I just have to answer one thing that Senator Webb said about the Iran deal, because I’m a strong proponent of what President Obama — and he said that because of that the Iran deal that enabled Russia to come in.

No, that’s not true, Senator Webb. I respect your foreign policy chops. But Russia is aligned with Iran and with Assad and the Alawite Shias in Syria. So that Iran deal did not allow Russia to come in.

COOPER: OK. Senator, I can give you 30 seconds to respond.

WEBB: I believe that the signal that we sent to the region when the Iran nuclear deal was concluded was that we are accepting Iran’s greater position on this very important balance of power, among our greatest ally Israel, and the Sunnis represented by the Saudi regime, and Iran. It was a position of weakness and I think it encouraged the acts that we’ve seen in the past several weeks.

COOPER: Thirty seconds for each of you. Governor Chafee, what is the greatest national security threat to the United States?

CHAFEE: It’s certainly the chaos in the Middle East. There’s no doubt about it.

COOPER: OK.

CHAFEE: And it all started with the Iraq invasion.

COOPER: Governor O’Malley?

O’MALLEY: I believe that nuclear Iran remains the biggest threat, along with the threat of ISIL; climate change, of course, makes cascading threats even more (inaudible).

COOPER: Secretary Clinton, the greatest national security threat?

CLINTON: I — I think it has to be continued threat from the spread of nuclear weapons, nuclear material that can fall into the wrong hands. I know the terrorists are constantly seeking it, and that’s why we have to stay vigilant, but also united around the world to prevent that.

COOPER: Senator Sanders, greatest national security threat?

SANDERS: The scientific community is telling us that if we do not address the global crisis of climate change, transform our energy system away from fossil fuel to sustainable energy, the planet that we’re going to be leaving our kids and our grandchildren may well not be habitable. That is a major crisis.

COOPER: Senator Webb?

WEBB: Our greatest long-term strategic challenge is our relation with China. Our greatest day-to-day threat is cyber warfare against this country. Our greatest military-operational threat is resolving the situations in the Middle East.

COOPER: All right. We’re going to take a short break. Do these candidates see eye to eye on an issue that is driving a big wedge between Republicans? That is next.

We’ll be right back.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: And welcome back. We are live in Nevada, in Las Vegas, at the Wynn Resort for the first Democratic presidential debate. The questions continue.

We begin with Secretary Clinton. Secretary Clinton, you are going to be testifying before Congress next week about your e-mails. For the last eight months, you haven’t been able to put this issue behind you. You dismissed it; you joked about it; you called it a mistake. What does that say about your ability to handle far more challenging crises as president?

CLINTON: Well, I’ve taken responsibility for it. I did say it was a mistake. What I did was allowed by the State Department, but it wasn’t the best choice.

And I have been as transparent as I know to be, turning over 55,000 pages of my e-mails, asking that they be made public. And you’re right. I am going to be testifying. I’ve been asking to testify for some time and to do it in public, which was not originally agreed to.

But let’s just take a minute here and point out that this committee is basically an arm of the Republican National Committee.

(APPLAUSE)

It is a partisan vehicle, as admitted by the House Republican majority leader, Mr. McCarthy, to drive down my poll numbers. Big surprise. And that’s what they have attempted to do.

I am still standing. I am happy to be part of this debate.

(APPLAUSE)

And I intend to keep talking about the issues that matter to the American people. You know, I believe strongly that we need to be talking about what people talk to me about, like how are we going to make college affordable? How are we going to pay down student debt?

COOPER: Secretary…

CLINTON: How are we going to get health care for everybody…

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: Secretary Clinton, Secretary Clinton, with all due respect, it’s a little hard — I mean, isn’t it a little bit hard to call this just a partisan issue? There’s an FBI investigation, and President Obama himself just two days ago said this is a legitimate issue.

CLINTON: Well, I never said it wasn’t legitimate. I said that I have answered all the questions and I will certainly be doing so again before this committee.

But I think it would be really unfair not to look at the entire picture. This committee has spent $4.5 million of taxpayer money, and they said that they were trying to figure out what we could do better to protect our diplomats so that something like Benghazi wouldn’t happen again. There were already seven committee reports about what to do. So I think it’s pretty clear what their obvious goal is.

COOPER: Thank you.

CLINTON: But I’ll be there. I’ll answer their questions. But tonight, I want to talk not about my e-mails, but about what the American people want from the next president of the United States.

(APPLAUSE)

COOPER: Senator Sanders?

SANDERS: Let me say this.

(APPLAUSE)

Let me say — let me say something that may not be great politics. But I think the secretary is right, and that is that the American people are sick and tired of hearing about your damn e-mails.

(APPLAUSE)

CLINTON: Thank you. Me, too. Me, too.

SANDERS: You know? The middle class — Anderson, and let me say something about the media, as well. I go around the country, talk to a whole lot of people. Middle class in this country is collapsing. We have 27 million people living in poverty. We have massive wealth and income inequality. Our trade policies have cost us millions of decent jobs. The American people want to know whether we’re going to have a democracy or an oligarchy as a result of Citizens Union. Enough of the e-mails. Let’s talk about the real issues facing America.

(APPLAUSE)

CLINTON: Thank you, Bernie. Thank you.

(APPLAUSE)

COOPER: It’s obviously very popular in this crowd, and it’s — hold on.

(APPLAUSE)

I know that plays well in this room. But I got to be honest, Governor Chafee, for the record, on the campaign trail, you’ve said a different thing. You said this is a huge issue. Standing here in front of Secretary Clinton, are you willing to say that to her face?

CHAFEE: Absolutely. We have to repair American credibility after we told the world that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, which he didn’t. So there’s an issue of American credibility out there. So any time someone is running to be our leader, and a world leader, which the American president is, credibility is an issue out there with the world. And we have repair work to be done. I think we need someone that has the best in ethical standards as our next president. That’s how I feel.

COOPER: Secretary Clinton, do you want to respond?

CLINTON: No.

COOPER: Governor — Governor…

(APPLAUSE)

Governor O’Malley…

(APPLAUSE)

Governor, it’s popular in the room, but a lot of people do want to know these answers.

Governor O’Malley, you expressed concern on the campaign trail that the Democratic Party is, and I quote, “being defined by Hillary Clinton’s email scandal.”

You heard her answer, do you still feel that way tonight?

O’MALLEY: I believe that now that we’re finally having debates, Anderson, that we don’t have to be defined by the email scandal, and how long — what the FBI’s asking about. Instead, we can talk about affordable college, making college debt free, and all the issues. Which is why — and I see the chair of the DNC here, look how glad we are actually to be talking about the issues that matter the most to people around the kitchen table.

We need to get wages to go up, college more affordable…

COOPER: …Thank you, governor.

O’MALLEY: …we need to make American 100 percent clean electric by 2050.

COOPER: I want to talk about issues of race in America, for that I want to start of with Don Lemon.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Alright, Anderson, thank you very much. I’m not sure how to follow that, but this question is about something that has tripped some of the candidates up out on the campaign trail. Can you hear me?

Can’t hear me in the room. OK, here we go again, as I said…

WILKINS: …law school. My question for the candidates is, do black lives matter, or do all lives matter?

COOPER: The question from Arthur…

LEMON: …There we go…

COOPER: …Do black lives matter, or do all lives matter? Let’s put that question to Senator Sanders.

SANDERS: Black lives matter.

(CHEERING)

SANDERS: And the reason — the reason those words matter is the African American community knows that on any given day some innocent person like Sandra Bland can get into a car, and then three days later she’s going to end up dead in jail, or their kids…

(APPLAUSE)

SANDERS: …are going to get shot. We need to combat institutional racism from top to bottom, and we need major, major reforms in a broken criminal justice system…

(APPLAUSE)

SANDERS: …In which we have more people in jail than China. And, I intended to tackle that issue. To make sure that our people have education and jobs rather than jail cells.

(APPLAUSE)

COOPER: Governor O’Malley, the question from Arthur was do black lives matter, or do all lives matter?

O’MALLEY: Anderson, the point that the Black Lives Matter movement is making is a very, very legitimate and serious point, and that is that as a nation we have undervalued the lives of black lives, people of color.

When I ran for Mayor of Baltimore — and we we burying over 350 young men ever single year, mostly young, and poor, and black, and I said to our legislature, at the time when I appeared in front of them as a mayor, that if we were burying white, young, poor men in these number we would be marching in the streets and there would be a different reaction.

Black lives matter, and we have a lot of work to do to reform our criminal justice system, and to address race relations in our country.

(APPLAUSE)

COOPER: Secretary Clinton, what would you do for African Americans in this country that President Obama couldn’t?

CLINTON: Well, I think that President Obama has been a great moral leader on these issues, and has laid out an agenda that has been obstructed by the Republicans at every turn, so…

(APPLAUSE)

CLINTON: …So, what we need to be doing is not only reforming criminal justice — I have talked about that at some length, including things like body cameras, but we also need to be following the recommendations of the commissioner that President Obama empanelled on policing. There is an agenda there that we need to be following up on.

Similarly, we need to tackle mass incarceration, and this may be the only bi-partisan issue in the congress this year. We actually have people on both sides of the aisle who have reached the same conclusion, that we can not keep imprisoning more people than anybody else in the world.

But, I believe that the debate, and the discussion has to go further, Anderson, because we’ve got to do more about the lives of these children. That’s why I started off by saying we need to be committed to making it possible for every child to live up to his or her god given potential. That is…

COOPER: …Thank you, Senator…

CLINTON: …really hard to do if you don’t have early childhood education…

COOPER: Senator…

CLINTON: …if you don’t have schools that are able to meet the needs of the people, or good housing, there’s a long list…

(APPLAUSE)

CLINTON: …We need a new New Deal for communities of color…

COOPER: Senator Webb?

WEBB: I hope I can get that kind of time here. As a President of the United States, every life in this country matters. At the same time, I believe I can say to you, I have had a long history of working with the situation of African Americans.

We’re talking about criminal justice reform, I risked my political life raising the issue of criminal justice reform when I ran for the Senate in Virginia in 2006. I had democratic party political consultants telling me I was committing political suicide.

We led that issue in the congress. We started a national debate on it. And it wasn’t until then that the Republican Party started joining in.

I also represented a so-called war criminal, an African American Marine who was wounded — who was convicted of murder in Vietnam, for six years. He took his life three years into this. I cleared his name after — after three years.

COOPER: Thanks, sir.

WEBB: And I put the African American soldier on the Mall. I made that recommendation and fought for it. So, if you want someone who is — can stand up in front of you right now and say I have done the hard job, I have taken the risks, I am your person.

COOPER: Senator Sanders, let’s talk about income inequality. Wages and incomes are flat. You’ve argued that the gap between rich and poor is wider than at any time since the 1920s. We’ve had a Democratic president for seven years. What are you going to be able to do that President Obama didn’t?

SANDERS: Well, first of all, let’s remember where we were when Bush left office. We were losing 800,000 jobs a month. And I know my Republican friends seem to have some amnesia on this issue, but the world’s financial crisis was on — the world’s financial markets system was on the verge of collapse. That’s where we were.

Are we better off today than we were then? Absolutely. But the truth is that for the 40 years, the great middle class of this country has been disappearing. And in my view what we need to do is create millions of jobs by rebuilding our crumbling infrastructure; raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour; pay equity for women workers; and our disastrous trade policies, which have cost us millions of jobs; and make every public college and university in this country tuition free.

(APPLAUSE)

COOPER: Secretary Clinton…

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: I’ll let you jump in a moment. Everybody will get in on this in a moment.

Secretary Clinton, how would you address this issue? In all candor, you and your husband are part of the one percent. How can you credibly represent the views of the middle class?

CLINTON: Well, you know, both Bill and I have been very blessed. Neither of us came from wealthy families and we’ve worked really hard our entire lives. And I want to make sure every single person in this country has the same opportunities that he and I have had, to make the most of their God-given potential and to have the chances that they should have in America for a good education, good job training, and then good jobs.

I have a five point economic plan, because this inequality challenge we face, we have faced it at other points. It’s absolutely right. It hasn’t been this bad since the 1920s. But if you look at the Republicans versus the Democrats when it comes to economic policy, there is no comparison. The economy does better when you have a Democrat in the White House and that’s why we need to have a Democrat in the White House in January 2017.

COOPER: Governor O’Malley, (inaudible). O’MALLEY: Yes. Anderson, I want to associate myself with many of the items that the senator from Vermont mentioned, and I actually did them in our state. We raised the minimum wage, passed the living wage, invested more in infrastructure, went four years in a row without a penny’s increase in college tuition.

But there’s another piece that Senator Sanders left out tonight, but he’s been excellent about underscoring that. And that is that we need to separate the casino, speculative, mega-bank gambling that we have to insure with our money, from the commercial banking — namely, reinstating Glass-Steagall.

Secretary Clinton mentioned my support eight years ago. And Secretary, I was proud to support you eight years ago, but something happened in between, and that is, Anderson, a Wall Street crash that wiped out millions of jobs and millions of savings for families. And we are still just as vulnerable Paul Volcker says today.

We need to reinstate Glass-Steagall and that’s a huge difference on this stage among us as candidates.

COOPER: Just for viewers at home who may not be reading up on this, Glass-Steagall is the Depression-era banking law repealed in 1999 that prevented commercial banks from engaging in investment banking and insurance activities.

Secretary Clinton, he raises a fundamental difference on this stage. Senator Sanders wants to break up the big Wall Street banks. You don’t. You say charge the banks more, continue to monitor them. Why is your plan better?

CLINTON: Well, my plan is more comprehensive. And frankly, it’s tougher because of course we have to deal with the problem that the banks are still too big to fail. We can never let the American taxpayer and middle class families ever have to bail out the kind of speculative behavior that we saw.

But we also have to worry about some of the other players — AIG, a big insurance company; Lehman Brothers, an investment bank. There’s this whole area called “shadow banking.” That’s where the experts tell me the next potential problem could come from.

CLINTON: So I’m with both Senator Sanders and Governor O’Malley in putting a lot of attention onto the banks. And the plan that I have put forward would actually empower regulators to break up big banks if we thought they posed a risk. But I want to make sure we’re going to cover everybody, not what caused the problem last time, but what could cause it next time.

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: Senator Sanders, Secretary Clinton just said that her policy is tougher than yours.

SANDERS: Well, that’s not true.

(LAUGHTER)

COOPER: Why?

SANDERS: Let us be clear that the greed and recklessness and illegal behavior of Wall Street, where fraud is a business model, helped to destroy this economy and the lives of millions of people.

(APPLAUSE)

Check the record. In the 1990s — and all due respect — in the 1990s, when I had the Republican leadership and Wall Street spending billions of dollars in lobbying, when the Clinton administration, when Alan Greenspan said, “what a great idea it would be to allow these huge banks to merge,” Bernie Sanders fought them, and helped lead the opposition to deregulation.

(APPLAUSE)

Today, it is my view that when you have the three…

COOPER: Senator…

SANDERS: …largest banks in America — are much bigger than they were when we bailed them out for being too big to fail, we have got to break them up.

(APPLAUSE)

COOPER: Secretary Clinton, you have to be able to respond. He brought you up.

CLINTON: Yeah.

You know, I — I respect the passion an intensity. I represented Wall Street, as a senator from New York, and I went to Wall Street in December of 2007 — before the big crash that we had — and I basically said, “cut it out! Quit foreclosing on homes! Quit engaging in these kinds of speculative behaviors.”

I took on the Bush administration for the same thing. So I have thought deeply and long about what we’re going to do to do exactly what I think both the senator and the governor want, which is to rein in and stop this risk.

And my plan would have the potential of actually sending the executives to jail. Nobody went to jail after $100 billion in fines were paid…

(APPLAUSE)

COOPER: (inaudible)

CLINTON: …and would give regulators the authority to go after the big banks.

COOPER: Thank you. Thank you. Senator Sanders…

CLINTON: But I’m telling you — I will say it tonight. If only you look at the big banks, you may be missing the forest for the trees.

(CROSSTALK)

WEBB: Bernie, say my name so I can get into this.

SANDERS: I will, just a second.

WEBB: OK. Thank you.

(LAUGHTER)

SANDERS: I’ll tell him.

In my view, Secretary Clinton, you do not — Congress does not regulate Wall Street. Wall Street regulates Congress.

(APPLAUSE)

And we have gotta break off these banks. Going to them…

CLINTON: So…

SANDERS: …and saying, “please, do the right thing”…

CLINTON: …no, that’s not what…

SANDERS: …is kind of naive.

CLINTON: …that — I think Dodd-Frank was a very…

WEBB: Anderson, I need to jump in (inaudible).

CLINTON: …good start, and I think that we have to implement it. We have to prevent the Republicans from ripping it apart. We have to save the Consumer Financial Protection board, which is finally beginning to act to protect consumers.

(APPLAUSE)

We have work to do. You’ve got no argument from me. But I know, if we don’t come in with a very tough and comprehensive approach, like the plan I’m recommending, we’re going to be behind instead of ahead…

COOPER: Governor O’Malley? Where do you stand?

CLINTON: …on what the next crisis could be.

O’MALLEY: Anderson, look, this is — the big banks — I mean, once we repealed Glass-Steagall back in the late 1999s (ph), the big banks, the six of them, went from controlling, what, the equivalent of 15 percent of our GDP to now 65 percent of our GDP.

And — (inaudible) right before this debate, Secretary Clinton’s campaign put out a lot of reversals on positions on Keystone and many other things. But one of them that we still have a great difference on, Madam Secretary, is that you are not for Glass-Steagall.

You are not for putting a firewall between this speculative, risky shadow banking behavior. I am, and the people of our country need a president who’s on their side, willing to protect the Main Street economy from recklessness on Wall Street.

We have to fulfill…

COOPER: Secretary Clinton…

O’MALLEY: …our promise.

COOPER: I have to let you respond.

(APPLAUSE)

CLINTON: Well, you know, everybody on this stage has changed a position or two. We’ve been around a cumulative quite some period of time.

(LAUGHTER)

You know, we know that if you are learning, you’re going to change your position. I never took a position on Keystone until I took a position on Keystone.

But I have been on the forefront of dealing with climate change, starting in 2009, when President Obama and I crashed (ph) a meeting with the Chinese and got them to sign up to the first international agreement to combat climate change that they’d ever joined.

So I’m…

COOPER: Thank you.

CLINTON: …not taking a back seat to anybody on my values…

COOPER: Thank…

CLINTON: …my principles and the results that I get.

COOPER: Senator Sanders…

(APPLAUSE)

Senator Sanders, in 2008, congressional leaders were told, without the 2008 bailout, the U.S. was possibly days away from a complete meltdown. Despite that, you still voted against it.

As president, would you stand by your principles if it risked the country’s financial stability?

SANDERS: Well, I remember that meeting very well. I remember it like it was yesterday. Hank Paulson, Bernanke came in, and they say, “guys, the economy is going to collapse because Wall Street is going under. It’s going to take the economy with them.”

And you know what I said to Hank Paulson? I said, “Hank, your guys — you come from Goldman Sachs. Your millionaire and billionaire friends caused this problem. How about your millionaire and billionaire friends paying for the bailout, not working families in this country?”

So to answer your question, no, I would not have let the economy collapse. But it was wrong to ask the middle class to bail out Wall Street. And by the way, I want Wall Street now to help kids in this country go to college, public colleges and universities, free with a Wall Street speculation tax.

(APPLAUSE)

COOPER: We’re going to talk about that in a minute.

But, Senator Webb, I want to get you in. You have said neither party has the guts to take on Wall Street. Is the system rigged?

WEBB: There is a reality that I think we all need to recognize with respect to the power of the financial sector.

And let me just go back a minute and say that on this TARP program, I introduced a piece of legislation calling for a windfall profits tax on the executives of any of these companies that got more than $5 billion, that it was time for them, once they got their compensation and their bonus, to split the rest of the money they made with the nurses and the truck drivers and the soldiers who bailed them out. With respect to the financial sector, I mean, I know that my time has run out but in speaking of changing positions and the position on how this debate has occurred is kind of frustrating because unless somebody mentions my name I can’t get into the discussion.

COOPER: You agreed to these rules and you’re wasting time. So if you would finish your answer, we’ll move on.

WEBB: All right. Well, I’m trying to set a mark here so maybe we can get into a little more later on. This hasn’t been equal time.

But if you want to look at what has happened, if we look at the facts in terms of how we’re going to deal with this, since that crash, in the last 10 years, the amount of the world’s capital economy that Wall Street manages has gone from 44 percent to 55 percent.

That means the Wall Street money managers are not risking themselves as the same way the American people are when they’re going to get their compensation. They’re managing money from all over the world.

We have to take that into consideration when we’re looking at ways to regulate it.

COOPER: Governor Chafee, you have attacked Secretary Clinton for being too close to Wall Street banks. In 1999 you voted for the very bill that made banks bigger.

CHAFEE: The Glass-Steagall was my very first vote, I’d just arrived, my dad had died in office, I was appointed to the office, it was my very first vote.

COOPER: Are you saying you didn’t know what you were voting for?

CHAFEE: I’d just arrived at the Senate. I think we’d get some takeovers, and that was one. It was my very first vote, and it was 92-5. It was the…

COOPER: Well, with all due respect, Governor…

CHAFEE: But let me just say…

COOPER: … what does that say about you that you’re casting a vote for something you weren’t really sure about?

CHAFEE: I think you’re being a little rough. I’d just arrived at the United States Senate. I’d been mayor of my city. My dad had died. I’d been appointed by the governor. It was the first vote and it was 90-5, because it was a conference report.

But let me just say about income inequality. We’ve had a lot of talk over the last few minutes, hours, or tens of minutes, but no one is saying how we’re going to fix it. And it all started with the Bush tax cuts that favored the wealthy.

So let’s go back to the tax code. And 0.6 percent of Americans are at the top echelon, over 464,000, 0.6 Americans. That’s less than 1 percent. But they generate 30 percent of the revenue. And they’re doing fine.

COOPER: Thank you, Governor.

CHAFEE: So there’s still a lot more money to be had from this top echelon. I’m saying let’s have another tier and put that back into the tax bracket. And that will generate $42 billion.

COOPER: I want to bring in Dana Bash.

CHAFEE: And then we can help the middle class and hard-earning Americans — hard-working Americans.

COOPER: Dana?

BASH: Thank you.

CNN visited college campuses, along with Facebook. And not surprisingly college affordability was among the most pressing issue.

Senator Sanders, you’ve mentioned a couple of times you do have a plan to make public colleges free for everyone. Secretary Clinton has criticized that in saying she’s not in favor of making a college free for Donald Trump’s kids.

Do you think taxpayers should pick up the tab for wealthy children?

SANDERS: Well, let me tell you, Donald Trump and his billionaire friends under my policies are going to pay a hell of a lot more in taxes today — taxes in the future than they’re paying today.

(APPLAUSE)

SANDERS: But in terms of education, this is what I think. This is the year 2015. A college degree today, Dana, is the equivalent of what a high school degree was 50 years ago.

And what we said 50 years ago and a hundred years ago is that every kid in this country should be able to get a high school education regardless of the income of their family. I think we have to say that is true for everybody going to college.

I think we don’t need a complicated system, which the secretary is talking about, the income goes down, the income goes down, if you’re poor you have to work, and so forth and so on.

I pay for my program, by the way, through a tax on Wall Street speculation, which will not only make public colleges and universities tuition-free, it will substantially lower interest rates on college debt, a major crisis in this country.

(APPLAUSE)

BASH: And, Secretary Clinton, it’s not just college tuition that Senator Sanders is talking about, expanding Social Security and giving all Americans Medicare. What’s wrong with that?

CLINTON: Well, let me address college affordability, because I have a plan that I think will really zero in on what the problems are. First, all the 40 million Americans who currently have student debt will be able to refinance their debt to a low interest rate. That will save thousands of dollars for people who are now struggling under this cumbersome, burdensome college debt.

As a young student in Nevada said to me, the hardest thing about going to college should not be paying for it. So then we have to make it more affordable. How do we make it more affordable? My plan would enable anyone to go to a public college or university tuition free. You would not have to borrow money for tuition.

But I do believe — and maybe it’s because I worked when I went through college; I worked when I went through law school — I think it’s important for everybody to have some part of getting this accomplished. That’s why I call it a compact.

BASH: Secretary Clinton…

CLINTON: But, yes, I would like students to work 10 hours a week…

BASH: Can you answer the…

SANDERS: … in order to make it possible for them to afford their education. And I want colleges to get their costs down. They are outrageously high in what they’re charging.

BASH: Secretary Clinton, the question was not just about tuition, though. It was about Senator Sanders’ plan to expand Social Security, to make Medicare available to all Americans. Is that something that you would support? And if not, why not?

CLINTON: Well, I fully support Social Security. And the most important fight we’re going to have is defending it against continuing Republican efforts to privatize it.

BASH: Do you want to expand it?

CLINTON: I want to enhance the benefits for the poorest recipients of Social Security. We have a lot of women on Social Security, particularly widowed and single women who didn’t make a lot of money during their careers, and they are impoverished, and they need more help from the Social Security system.

And I will focus — I will focus on helping those people who need it the most. And of course I’m going to defend Social Security. I’m going to look for ways to try to make sure it’s solvent into the future. And we also need to talk about health care at some time, because we agree on the goals, we just disagree on the means.

SANDERS: When the Republicans — when the Republicans in the Congress and some Democrats were talking about cutting Social Security and benefits for disabled veterans, for the so-called chained CPI, I founded a caucus called the Defending Social Security Caucus.

My view is that when you have millions of seniors in this country trying to get by — and I don’t know how they do on $11,000, $12,000, $13,000 a year — you don’t cut Social Security, you expand it. And the way you expand it is by lifting the cap on taxable incomes so that you do away with the absurdity of a millionaire paying the same amount into the system as somebody making $118,000. You do that, Social Security is solvent until 2061 and you can expand benefits.

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: Senator Sanders, I want to bring it over to Juan Carlos Lopez from CNN en Espanol. We’re obviously in Nevada. It’s had the highest percentage of undocumented immigrants of any state in the country as of last year. Juan Carlos?

JUAN CARLOS LOPEZ, CNN EN ESPANOL ANCHOR: Gracias, Anderson. Senator Sanders, in 2013, you voted for immigration reform. But in 2007, when Democrats controlled Congress and the Bush White House was onboard, you voted against it. Why should Latino voters trust you now when you left them at the altar at the moment when reform was very close?

SANDERS: I didn’t leave anybody at the altar. I voted against that piece of legislation because it had guest-worker provisions in it which the Southern Poverty Law Center talked about being semi-slavery. Guest workers are coming in, they’re working under terrible conditions, but if they stand up for their rights, they’re thrown out of the country. I was not the only progressive to vote against that legislation for that reason. Tom Harkin, a very good friend of Hillary Clinton’s and mine, one of the leading labor advocates, also voted against that.

LOPEZ: Tom Harkin isn’t running for president. You are.

SANDERS: I know that. But point being is that progressives did vote against that for that reason. My view right now — and always has been — is that when you have 11 million undocumented people in this country, we need comprehensive immigration reform, we need a path toward citizenship, we need to take people out of the shadows.

O’MALLEY: And Juan Carlos — Juan Carlos…

LOPEZ: Secretary Clinton — Secretary Clinton, Governor O’Malley wants to open up Obamacare to millions of undocumented immigrants and their children, including almost 90,000 people right here in Nevada. Do you?

CLINTON: Well, first of all, I want to make sure every child gets health care. That’s why I helped to create the Children’s Health Insurance Program, and I want to support states that are expanding health care and including undocumented children and others.

I want to open up the opportunity for immigrants to be able to buy in to the exchanges under the Affordable Care Act. I think to go beyond that, as I understand what Governor O’Malley has recommended, so that they would get the same subsidies.

I think that is — it raises so many issues. It would be very difficult to administer, it needs to be part of a comprehensive immigration reform, when we finally do get to it.

LOPEZ: Governor O’Malley?

O’MALLEY: Juan Carlos, I think what you’ve heard up here is some of the old thinking on immigration reform, and that’s why it’s gridlocked. We need to understand that our country is stronger in every generation by the arrival of new American immigrants. That is why I have put out a policy for comprehensive immigration reform, that is why I would go further than President Obama has on DACA, and DAPA.

I mean, we are a nation of immigrants, we are made stronger by immigrants. Do you think for a second that simply because somebody’s standing in a broken que on naturalization they’re not going to go to the hospital, and that care isn’t going to fall on to our insurance rates? I am for a generous, compassionate America that says we’re all in this together. We need comprehensive

COOPER: Senator Webb…

O’MALLEY: …immigration reform. It’ll make wages go up in America $250 for every year…

LOPEZ: Senator Webb, do you support the undocumented immigrants getting Obamacare?

WEBB: I wouldn’t have a problem with that. Let me start by saying my wife is an immigrant. She was a refugee, her family escaped from Vietnam on a boat– her entire extended family, after the communists took over, when hundreds of thousands of people were out there and thousands of them were dying. Went to two refugee camps, she never spoke English in her home, and she ended, as I said, graduating from Cornell Law School. That’s not only American dream, that’s a value that we have with a good immigration system in place. No country has — is a country without defining its borders. We need to resolve this issue. I actually introduced an amendment in the 2007 immigration bill…

LOPEZ: …Thank you, Senator.

WEBB: …Giving a pathway to citizenship to those people who had come here, and put down their roots, and met as a series of standards…

COOPER: …Thank you, Senator.

WEBB: …lost (ph) — I introduced that in 2007 — We need a comprehensive reform, and we need to be able to define our borders.

COOPER: Secretary Clinton?

CLINTON: I want to follow up because I think underneath Juan Carlos’ important questions, there is such a difference between everything you’re hearing here on this stage, and what we hear from the Republicans.

(APPLAUSE)

O’MALLEY: Here. Here.

(CHEERING) (APPLAUSE)

CLINTON: Demonize hard-working immigrants who have insulted them. You know, I came to Las Vegas in, I think, May. Early may. Met with a group of DREAMers, I wish everybody in America could meet with this young people, to hear their stories, to know their incredible talent, their determination, and that’s why I would go further…

COOPER: …Secretary…

CLINTON: …than even the executive orders that President Obama has signed when I’m president.

(CROSS TALK)

COOPER: Secretary Clinton, let me ask you. Two of your rivals from your left, Governor O’Malley, and Senator Sanders, want to provide instate college tuition to undocumented immigrants. Where do you stand on that?

CLINTON: My plan would support any state that takes that position, and would work with those states and encourage more states to do the same thing.

COOPER: So, on the record, you believe that undocumented immigrants should get instate college tuition.

CLINTON: If their states agree, then we want more states to do the same thing.

COOPER: Governor O’Malley?

O’MALLEY: Anderson, we actually did this in my state of Maryland. We passed…

(APPLAUSE)

O’MALLEY: We passed a state version of the DREAM Act…

(CHEERING)

O’MALLEY: …And a lot of the xenophobes, the immigrant haters like some that we’ve heard like, Donald Trump, that carnival barker in the Republican party…

(CHEERING) (APPLAUSE)

O’MALLEY: Tried to mischaracterize it as free tuition for illegal immigrants. But, we took our case to the people when it was petitioned to referendum, and we won with 58 percent of the vote. The more our children learn, the more they will earn, and that’s true of children who have yet to be naturalized…

COOPER: …Senator…

O’MALLEY: …but will become American citizens…

COOPER: Senator Sanders, you talked about your record on the Veteran affairs committee. You served on that committee for the last eight years, including two years as its chairman while veterans died waiting for health care. You and Senator McCain ultimately addressed the issue with bi-partisan legislation. Why did it take 18 Inspector General reports, and a CNN investigation, and others, before you and your colleagues took action?

SANDERS: Well, I was chairman for two years, and when I was chairman we did take action. What we did is pass a $15 billion dollar piece of legislation which brought in many, many new doctors, and nurses into the V.A. so that veterans in this country could get the health care when they needed it, and not be on long waiting lines.

And, the other part of that legislation said that if a veteran is living more than 40 miles away from a V.A. facility, that veteran could get health care from the community health center, or the private sector. As a result of that legislation, we went further in than any time in recent history in improving health care for the men and women of this country who put their lives on the line to defend them.

COOPER: Governor Chafee, you and Hillary Clinton both voted for the Patriot Act which created the NSA surveillance program. You’ve emphasized civil liberties, privacy during your campaign. Aren’t these two things in conflict?

CHAFEE: No, that was another 99 to one vote for the Patriot Act, and it was seen as at the time modernizing our ability to do what we’ve always done to tap phones which always required a warrant. And I voted for that.

COOPER: Do you regret that vote?

CHAFEE: No, no. As long as you’re getting a warrant, I believe that under the Fourth Amendment, you should be able to do surveillance, but you need a warrant. That’s what the Fourth Amendment says. And in the Patriot Act, section 215 started to get broadened too far. So I would be in favor of addressing and reforming section 215 of the Patriot Act.

COOPER: Secretary Clinton, do you regret your vote on the Patriot Act?

CLINTON: No, I don’t. I think that it was necessary to make sure that we were able after 9/11 to put in place the security that we needed. And it is true that it did require that there be a process. What happened, however, is that the Bush administration began to chip away at that process. And I began to speak out about their use of warrantless surveillance and the other behavior that they engaged in.

We always have to keep the balance of civil liberties, privacy and security. It’s not easy in a democracy, but we have to keep it in mind.

COOPER: Senator — Senator Sanders, you’re the only one on this stage who voted against the Patriot Act in 2001…

(APPLAUSE)

SANDERS: It was 99 to one and I was maybe the one. I don’t know.

COOPER: … and the reauthorization votes. Let me ask you, if elected, would you shut down the NSA surveillance program?

SANDERS: I’m sorry?

COOPER: Would you shut down the NSA surveillance program?

SANDERS: Absolutely. Of course.

COOPER: You would, point blank.

SANDERS: Well, I would shut down — make — I’d shut down what exists right now is that virtually every telephone call in this country ends up in a file at the NSA. That is unacceptable to me. But it’s not just government surveillance. I think the government is involved in our e-mails; is involved in our websites. Corporate America is doing it as well.

If we are a free country, we have the right to be free. Yes, we have to defend ourselves against terrorism, but there are ways to do that without impinging on our constitutional rights and our privacy rights.

O’MALLEY (?): Anderson, the NSA…

COOPER: Governor Chafee, Edward Snowden, is he a traitor or a hero?

CHAFEE: No, I would bring him home. The courts have ruled that what he did — what he did was say the American…

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: Bring him home, no jail time?

CHAFEE: … the American government was acting illegally. That’s what the federal courts have said; what Snowden did showed that the American government was acting illegally for the Fourth Amendment. So I would bring him home.

COOPER: Secretary Clinton, hero or traitor?

CLINTON: He broke the laws of the United States. He could have been a whistleblower. He could have gotten all of the protections of being a whistleblower. He could have raised all the issues that he has raised. And I think there would have been a positive response to that.

COOPER: Should he do jail time?

ClINTON: In addition — in addition, he stole very important information that has unfortunately fallen into a lot of the wrong hands. So I don’t think he should be brought home without facing the music.

COOPER: Governor O’Malley, Snowden?

(APPLAUSE)

O’MALLEY: Anderson, Snowden put a lot of Americans’ lives at risk. Snowden broke the law. Whistleblowers do not run to Russia and try to get protection from Putin. If he really believes that, he should be back here.

COOPER: Senator Sanders, Edward Snowden?

SANDERS: I think Snowden played a very important role in educating the American people to the degree in which our civil liberties and our constitutional rights are being undermined.

COOPER: Is he a hero?

SANDERS: He did — he did break the law, and I think there should be a penalty to that. But I think what he did in educating us should be taken into consideration before he is (inaudible).

COOPER: Senator Webb, Edward Snowden?

WEBB: I — well, I — I would leave his ultimate judgment to the legal system. Here’s what I do believe. We have a serious problem in terms of the collection of personal information in this country. And one of the things that I did during the FISA bill in 2007, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, was introduce with Russ Feingold two amendments basically saying, “We understand the realities of how you have to collect this broad information in the Internet age, but after a certain period of time, you need to destroy the personal information that you have if people have not been brought — if criminal justice proceedings have not been brought against them.”

We’ve got a vast data bank of information that is ripe for people with bad intentions to be able to use. And they need to be destroyed.

COOPER: Another — another question for each of you, starting with Governor Chafee.

Name the one thing — the one way that your administration would not be a third term of President Obama.

CHAFEE: Certainly, ending the wars. We’ve got to stop these wars. You have to have a new dynamic, a new paradigm. We just spent a half-billion dollars arming and training soldiers, the rebel soldiers in Syria. They quickly join the other side. We bombed the…

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: President Obama’s generals right now are suggesting keeping troops in Afghanistan after the time he wanted them pulled out. Would you keep them there?

CHAFEE: I’d like to finish my question — my answer.

And also we just bombed a hospital. We’ve had drone strikes that hit civilian weddings. So I would change how we — our approach to the Middle East. We need a new paradigm in the Middle East.

COOPER: Governor O’Malley, how would you be different than President Obama’s administration?

O’MALLEY: I would follow through on the promise that the American people thought we made as Democratic Party, to protect the Main Street economy from recklessness on Wall Street. I would push to separate out these too-big-to-jail, too-big-to-fail banks, and put in place Glass-Steagall, a modern Glass-Steagall that creates a firewall so that this wreckage of our economy can never happen again.

COOPER: Secretary Clinton, how would you not be a third term of President Obama?

CLINTON: Well, I think that’s pretty obvious. I think being the first woman president would be quite a change from the presidents we’ve had up until this point, including President Obama.

COOPER: Is there a policy difference?

CLINTON: Well, there’s a lot that I would like to do to build on the successes of President Obama, but also, as I’m laying out, to go beyond. And that’s in my economic plans, how I would deal with the prescription drug companies, how I would deal with college, how I would deal with a full range of issues that I’ve been talking about throughout this campaign to go further.

COOPER: Senator Sanders?

SANDERS: I have a lot of respect for president Obama. I have worked with him time and time again on many, many issues. But here’s where I do disagree. I believe that the power of corporate America, the power of Wall Street, the power of the drug companies, the power of the corporate media is so great that the only way we really transform America and do the things that the middle class and working class desperately need is through a political revolution when millions of people begin to come together and stand up and say: Our government is going to work for all of us, not just a handful of billionaires.

(APPLAUSE)

COOPER: Senator Webb, how would you not be a third term for Obama?

WEBB: I got a great deal of admiration and affection for Senator Sanders, but I — Bernie, I don’t think the revolution’s going to come. And I don’t think the Congress is going to pay for a lot of this stuff. And if there would be a major difference between my administration and the Obama administration, it would be in the use of executive authority.

I came up as a committee counsel in the Congress, used to put dozens of bills through the House floor every year as a committee counsel on the Veterans Committee. I have a very strong feeling about how our federal system works and how we need to lead and energize the congressional process instead of allowing these divisions to continue to paralyze what we’re doing. So I would lead — working with both parties in the Congress and working through them in the traditional way that our Constitution sets (ph).

COOPER: Senator Sanders, he cited you. You don’t hear a lot of Democratic presidential candidates talking about revolution. What do you mean?

SANDERS: What I mean is that we need to have one of the larger voter turnouts in the world, not one of the lowest. We need to raise public consciousness. We need the American people to know what’s going on in Washington in a way that today they do not know.

(APPLAUSE)

And when people come together in a way that does not exist now and are prepared to take on the big money interest, then we could bring the kind of change we need.

O’MALLEY: Anderson, I actually have talked about a revolution. What we need is a green energy revolution. We need to move America to a 100 percent clean electric grid by 2050 and create 5 million jobs along the way.

COOPER: And we want to — and we’re going to talk more about climate change and environmental issues coming up. Some of the candidates have tried marijuana, as have pretty much — probably everybody in this room.

(LAUGHTER)

Others have not. Does that influence — does it influence their views on legalization? Find out that and others ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: And welcome back to this CNN Democratic presidential debate. It has been quite a night so far. We are in the final block of this debate. All the candidates are back, which I’m very happy to see.

(LAUGHTER)

COOPER: It’s a long story. Let’s continue, shall we?

Secretary Clinton, welcome back.

CLINTON: Well, thank you.

(LAUGHTER)

CLINTON: You know, it does take me a little longer. That’s all I can say.

COOPER: That’s right. Secretary Clinton, Governor O’Malley says the presidency is not a crown to be passed back and forth between two royal families. This year has been the year of the outsider in politics, just ask Bernie Sanders. Why should Democrats embrace an insider like yourself?

CLINTON: Well, I can’t think of anything more of an outsider than electing the first woman president, but I’m not just running because I would be the first woman president.

(APPLAUSE)

CLINTON: I’m running because I have a lifetime of experience in getting results and fighting for people, fighting for kids, for women, for families, fighting to even the odds. And I know what it takes to get things done. I know how to find common ground and I know how to stand my ground. And I think we’re going to need both of those in Washington to get anything that we’re talking about up here accomplished.

So I’m very happy that I have both the commitment of a lifetime and the experience of a lifetime to bring together to offer the American people.

COOPER: Governor O’Malley, do you want to tell Secretary Clinton why she shouldn’t get the crown?

O’MALLEY: Well, actually, you know, we had this conversation. And I will share with you that I’ve traveled all around the country, Anderson, and there’s two phrases I keep hearing again and again and again. And they’re the phrases “new leadership” and “getting things done.”

We cannot be this dissatisfied with our gridlocked national politics and an economy where 70 percent of us are earning the same or less than we were 12 years ago, and think that a resort to old names is going to move us forward.

I respect what Secretary Clinton and her husband have done for our country. But our country needs new leadership to move forward.

COOPER: Secretary Clinton, you have to be able to respond, if you want.

CLINTON: Well, I would not ask anyone to vote for me based on my last name. I would ask them to listen to what I’m proposing, look at what I’ve accomplished in the Senate, as secretary of of state, and then draw your own conclusion.

I certainly am not campaigning to become president because my last name is Clinton. I’m campaigning because I think I have the right combination of what the country needs, at this point, and I think I can take the fight to the Republicans, because we cannot afford a Republican to succeed Barack Obama as president of the United States.

COOPER: (inaudible).

(APPLAUSE)

Senator Sanders, does she have the right stuff?

SANDERS: I think — I think that there is profound frustration all over this country with establishment politics. I am the only candidate running for president who is not a billionaire, who has raised substantial sums of money, and I do not have a super PAC.

(APPLAUSE)

I am not raising money from millionaires and billionaires, and in fact, tonight, in terms of what a political revolution is about, there are 4,000 house parties — 100,000 people in this country — watching this debate tonight who want real change in this country.

COOPER: we’ve got — we — a lot of questions we’ve got about climate change, and we’re gonna go to Don Lemon. Don?

LEMON: All right. This one is for Martin O’Malley. Anderson, Governor O’Malley, this is from Anna Bettis from Tempe, Arizona. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTION: As a young person, I’m very concerned about climate change and how it will affect my future. As a presidential candidate, what will you do to address climate change?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, Governor O’Malley, please tell Anna how you would protect the environment better than all the other candidates up on that stage.

O’MALLEY: Yeah.

Anna, I have put forward a plan — and I’m the only candidate, I believe, in either party to do this — to move America forward to a 100 percent clean electric grid by 2050.

We did not land a man on the moon with an all-of-the-above strategy. It was an intentional engineering challenge, and we solved it as a nation. And our nation must solve this one.

So I put forward the plan that would extend the investor tax credits for solar and for wind. If you go across Iowa, you see that 30 percent of their energy now comes from wind. We’re here in Las Vegas, one of the most sustainable cities in America, doing important things in terms of green building, architecture and design.

We can get there as a nation, but it’s going to require presidential leadership. And as president, I intend to sign as my very first order in office the — an order that moves us as a nation and dedicates our resources to solving this problem and moving us to a 100 percent clean electric grid by 2050.

COOPER: Governor…

O’MALLEY: We can do it.

COOPER: …Governor O’Malley, thank you very much.

(APPLAUSE)

Senator Webb, you have a very different view than just about anybody else on this stage, and unlike a lot of Democrats. You’re pro-coal, you’re pro-offshore drilling, you’re pro-Keystone pipeline. Are — again, are you — the question is, are you out of step with the Democratic party?

WEBB: Well, the — the question really is how are we going to solve energy problems here and in the global environment if you really want to address climate change?

And when I was in the Senate, I was an all-of-the-above energy voter. We introduced legislation to bring in alternate energy as well as nuclear power. I’m a strong proponent of nuclear power. It is safe, it is clean. And really, we are not going to solve climate change simply with the laws here.

We’ve done a good job in this country since 1970. If you look at China and India, they’re the greatest polluters in the world. Fifteen out of the 20 most polluted cities in the world are in one of those two countries. We need to solve this in a global way. It’s a global problem and I have been very strong on — on doing that. The — the agreements — the so-called agreements that we have had with China are illusory in terms of the immediate requirements of the — of the Chinese government itself.

So let’s solve this problem in an international way, and then we really will have a — a way to address climate change.

COOPER: Senator Sanders, are you tougher on — on climate change than Secretary Clinton?

SANDERS: Well, I will tell you this. I believe — and Pope Francis made this point. This is a moral issue. The scientists are telling us that we need to move extremely boldly.

I am proud that, along with Senator Barbara Boxer, a few years ago, we introduced the first piece of climate change legislation which called for a tax on carbon.

And let me also tell you that nothing is gonna happen unless we are prepared to deal with campaign finance reform, because the fossil fuel industry is funding the Republican Party, which denies the reality of climate change…

(APPLAUSE)

…and certainly is not prepared to go forward aggressively.

This is a moral issue. We have got to be extremely aggressive in working with China, India, Russia.

COOPER: Senator — thank you, Senator.

SANDERS: The planet — the future of the planet is at stake.

COOPER: Secretary Clinton, I want you to be able to respond, then I’m gonna go to (ph) (inaudible).

CLINTON: Well, that — that’s exactly what I’ve been doing. When we met in Copenhagen in 2009 and, literally, President Obama and I were hunting for the Chinese, going throughout this huge convention center, because we knew we had to get them to agree to something. Because there will be no effective efforts against climate change unless China and India join with the rest of the world.

They told us they’d left for the airport; we found out they were having a secret meeting. We marched up, we broke in, we said, “We’ve been looking all over for you. Let’s sit down and talk about what we need to do.” And we did come up with the first international agreement that China has signed.

Thanks to President Obama’s leadership, it’s now gone much further.

COOPER: Thank you. CLINTON: And I do think that the bilateral agreement that President Obama made with the Chinese was significant. Now, it needs to go further, and there will be an international meeting at the end of this year, and we must get verifiable commitments to fight climate change from every country gathered there.

COOPER: Dana Bash?

BASH: Secretary Clinton, you now support mandated paid family leave.

CLINTON: Mm-hmm.

BASH: Carly Fiorina, the first female CEO of a Fortune 50 company, argues, if the government requires paid leave, it will force small businesses to, quote, “hire fewer people and create fewer jobs.” What do you say not only to Carly Fiorina, but also a small-business owner out there who says, you know, I like this idea, but I just can’t afford it?

CLINTON: Well, I’m surprised she says that, because California has had a paid leave program for a number of years. And it’s…

BASH: It’s on the federal level.

CLINTON: Well, but all — well, on a state level, a state as big as many countries in the world. And it has not had the ill effects that the Republicans are always saying it will have. And I think this is — this is typical Republican scare tactics. We can design a system and pay for it that does not put the burden on small businesses.

I remember as a young mother, you know, having a baby wake up who was sick and I’m supposed to be in court, because I was practicing law. I know what it’s like. And I think we need to recognize the incredible challenges that so many parents face, particularly working moms.

I see my good friend, Senator Gillibrand, in the front row. She’s been a champion of this. We need to get a consensus through this campaign, which is why I’m talking about it everywhere I go, and we need to join the rest of the advanced world in having it.

BASH: But Secretary — Secretary Clinton, even many people who agree with you might say, look, this is very hard to do, especially in today’s day and age. There are so many people who say, “Really? Another government program? Is that what you’re proposing? And at the expense of taxpayer money?”

CLINTON: Well, look, you know, when people say that — it’s always the Republicans or their sympathizers who say, “You can’t have paid leave, you can’t provide health care.” They don’t mind having big government to interfere with a woman’s right to choose and to try to take down Planned Parenthood. They’re fine with big government when it comes to that. I’m sick of it.

(APPLAUSE)

You know, we can do these things.

(APPLAUSE)

We should not be paralyzed — we should not be paralyzed by the Republicans and their constant refrain, “big government this, big government that,” that except for what they want to impose on the American people. I know we can afford it, because we’re going to make the wealthy pay for it. That is the way to get it done.

COOPER: Thank you. Senator Sanders?

SANDERS: Yeah, Dana, here’s the point: Every other major country on Earth, every one, including some small countries, say that when a mother has a baby, she should stay home with that baby. We are the only major country. That is an international embarrassment that we do not provide family — paid family and medical leave.

(APPLAUSE)

Second of all, the secretary is right. Republicans tell us we can’t do anything except give tax breaks to billionaires and cut Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid. That’s not what the American people want.

COOPER: Governor O’Malley?

O’MALLEY: Anderson, in our state, we actually expanded family leave. And I have to agree with Secretary Clinton and Senator Sanders. Look, the genius of our nation is that we find ways in every generation to include more of our people more fully in the economic life of our country, and we need to do that for our families, and especially so that women aren’t penalized in having to drop out of the workforce. My wife, Katie, is here with our four kids. And, man, that was a juggle when we had little kids and — and keeping jobs and moving forwards. We would be a stronger nation economically if we had paid family leave.

COOPER: Governor, thank you. The issue now, particularly in this state, is recreational marijuana. I want to go to Juan Carlos Lopez.

LOPEZ: Thank you, Anderson.

Senator Sanders, right here in Nevada, there will be a measure to legalize recreational marijuana on the 2016 ballot. You’ve said you smoked marijuana twice; it didn’t quite work for you. If you were a Nevada resident, how would you vote?

SANDERS: I suspect I would vote yes.

(APPLAUSE)

And I would vote yes because I am seeing in this country too many lives being destroyed for non-violent offenses. We have a criminal justice system that lets CEOs on Wall Street walk away, and yet we are imprisoning or giving jail sentences to young people who are smoking marijuana. I think we have to think through this war on drugs…

(APPLAUSE)

SANDERS: …which has done an enormous amount of damage. We need to rethink our criminal justice system, we we’ve got a lot of work to do in that area.

O’MALLEY: Juan Carlos?

(APPLAUSE)

LOPEZ: Secretary Clinton, you told Christiane Amanpour you didn’t smoke pot when you were young, and you’re not going to start now.

(LAUGHTER)

LOPEZ: When asked about legalizing recreational marijuana, you told her let’s wait and see how it plays out in Colorado and Washington. It’s been more than a year since you’ve said that. Are you ready to take a position tonight?

CLINTON: No. I think that we have the opportunity through the states that are pursuing recreational marijuana to find out a lot more than we know today. I do support the use of medical marijuana, and I think even there we need to do a lot more research so that we know exactly how we’re going to help people for whom medical marijuana provides relief.

So, I think we’re just at the beginning, but I agree completely with the idea that we have got to stop imprisoning people who use marijuana. Therefore, we need more states, cities, and the federal government to begin to address this so that we don’t have this terrible result that Senator Sanders was talking about where we have a huge population in our prisons for nonviolent, low-level offenses that are primarily due to marijuana.

COOPER: Secretary Clinton, thank you. I want to go to Don Lemon with another Facebook question.

LEMON: Alright, Anderson. This is for Senator Sanders, OK? This is from Carrie (ph) Kang (ph) from Manassas, Virginia, would like would like to ask the Senator, “President Obama has had a difficult time getting Republicans to compromise on just about every agenda. How will you approach this going forward, and will it be any different?”

Senator?

SANDERS: The Republican party, since I’ve been in the Senate, and since President Obama has been in office, has played a terrible, terrible role of being total obstructionists. Every effort that he has made, that some of us have made, they have said no, no, no.

Now, in my view, the only way we can take on the right wing republicans who are, by the way, I hope will not continue to control the Senate and the House when one of us elected President…

(APPLAUSE)

SANDERS: …But the only way we can get things done is by having millions of people coming together. If we want free tuition at public colleges and universities, millions of young people are going to have to demand it, and give the Republicans an offer they can’t refuse.

If we want to raise the minimum wage to $15 bucks an hour, workers are going to have to come together and look the Republicans in the eye, and say, “We know what’s going on. You vote against us, you are out of your job.”

(APPLAUSE)

COOPER: We’re going to hear from all the candidates coming up. We’re going to take a short break. More from the candidates in a moment.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: And welcome back to the final round of the CNN Democratic presidential debate.

This is a question to each of you. Each of you, by the way, are going to have closing statements to make. Each of you will have 90 seconds. But a final question to each of you. If you can, just try to — 15 seconds if you can.

Governor Chafee, Franklin Delano Roosevelt once said, “I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made.” You’ve all made a few people upset over your political careers. Which enemy are you most proud of?

(LAUGHTER)

CHAFEE: I guess the coal lobby. I’ve worked hard for climate change and I want to work with the coal lobby. But in my time in the Senate, tried to bring them to the table so that we could address carbon dioxide. I’m proud to be at odds with the coal lobby.

COOPER: Governor O’Malley?

O’MALLEY: The National Rifle Association.

(APPLAUSE)

COOPER: Secretary Clinton?

CLINTON: Well, in addition to the NRA, the health insurance companies, the drug companies, the Iranians.

(LAUGHTER)

Probably the Republicans. (LAUGHTER)

(APPLAUSE)

COOPER: Senator Sanders?

SANDERS: As someone who has taken on probably every special interest that there is in Washington, I would lump Wall Street and the pharmaceutical industry at the top of my life of people who do not like me.

(APPLAUSE)

COOPER: Senator Webb?

WEBB: I’d have to say the enemy soldier that threw the grenade that wounded me, but he’s not around right now to talk to.

COOPER: All right. Time for closing statements. Each of you will have 90 seconds.

Governor Chafee, let’s begin with you.

CHAFEE: Thank you, Anderson. Thank you, CNN. And thank you, Facebook, for sponsoring this debate.

America has many challenges confronting us — ending the perpetual wars, addressing climate change, addressing income inequality, funding education, funding infrastructure, funding healthcare, helping black Americans, helping Native Americans. We have many challenges. Who is best able to confront these challenges?

I’ve served in government at many levels. I know what it’s like to solve problems at the local level because I did it as mayor. I know how to get legislation passed through Congress because I did it as a senator. I know how to turn around a state because I did as governor of Rhode Island.

But what I’m most proud of is that in 30 years of public service, I have had no scandals. I have high ethical standards. And what I’m most proud of is my judgment, particularly in the Iraq war vote. There was a lot of pressure — political pressure, public pressure. But I did my homework and I did not believe that the evidence was there that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. And we live now with the consequences.

CHAFEE: So that kind of judgment is what we want in a president going forward. And I’m running for president to end the wars. I want to be the peacemaker. I am a proven peacemaker. Please go to Chafee 2016 to learn more about me. Thank you.

(APPLAUSE)

COOPER: Governor Chafee, thank you very much. Senator Webb, your final statement for 90 seconds.

WEBB: Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, it’s been a pleasure to be with you tonight. You’ve heard a lot of promises up here; you’ve heard a lot of rhetoric. They all seem to happen during campaigns, and then once the election’s over, people start from scratch again and try to get things done.

One of the things I can promise you, if you look at my record, in and out of government, is that I’ve always been willing to take on a complicated, something unpopular issues, and work them through, the complex issues, and work them through in order to have the solution.

We did it with criminal justice reform. We’ve had a lot of discussion here about criminal justice reform. We did it in other ways. We need a national political strategy for our economy, for our social policy, for social justice, and, by the way, for how you run and manage the most complex bureaucracy in the world, which is the federal government.

I know how to lead. I did it in Vietnam, I did it in the Pentagon, I did it in the Senate, and if you will help me overcome this cavalcade of — of financial irregularities and money that is poisoning our political process, I am ready to do that for you in the White House.

COOPER: Senator Webb, thank you very much.

Governor O’Malley, you have 90 seconds.

O’MALLEY: Anderson, thank you.

I am very, very grateful to have been able to be on this stage with this distinguished group of candidates tonight. And what you heard tonight, Anderson, was a very, very — and all of you watching at home — was a very, very different debate than from the sort of debate you heard from the two presidential Republican debates.

(APPLAUSE)

On this stage — on this stage, you didn’t hear anyone denigrate women, you didn’t hear anyone make racist comments about new American immigrants, you didn’t hear anyone speak ill of another American because of their religious belief.

What you heard instead on this stage tonight was an honest search for the answers that will move our country forward, to move us to a 100 percent clean electric energy grid by 2050, to take the actions that we have always taken as Americans so that we can actually attack injustice in our country, employ more of our people, rebuild our cities and towns, educate our children at higher and better levels, and include more of our people in the economic, social, and political life of our country.

I truly believe that we are standing on the threshold of a new era of American progress. Unless you’ve become discouraged about our gridlock in Congress, talk to our young people under 30, because you’ll never find among them people that want to bash immigrants or people that want to deny rights to gay couples.

(APPLAUSE)

That tells me we are moving to a more connected, generous, and compassionate place, and we need to speak to the goodness within our country.

(APPLAUSE)

COOPER: Governor O’Malley, thank you very much.

Senator Sanders, final, closing thoughts, 90 seconds.

SANDERS: This is a great country, but we have many, many serious problems. We should not be the country that has the highest rate of childhood poverty of any major country and more wealth and income inequality than any other country.

We should not be the only major country on Earth that does not guarantee health care to all of our people as a right of citizenship and we should not be the only major country that does not provide medical and — and parental leave — family and parental leave to all of our families.

Now, at the end of our day, here is the truth that very few candidates will say, is that nobody up here, certainly no Republican, can address the major crises facing our country unless millions of people begin to stand up to the billionaire class that has so much power over our economy and our political life.

Jim Webb is right: Money is pouring in to this campaign through super PACs. We are doing it the old-fashioned way: 650,000 individual contributions. And if people want to help us out, BernieSanders.com. We are averaging $30 bucks apiece. We would appreciate your help.

(APPLAUSE)

COOPER: Secretary Clinton?

CLINTON: Thank you very much, Anderson. And thanks to all the viewers who tuned in tonight.

I think what you did see is that, in this debate, we tried to deal with some of the very tough issues facing our country. That’s in stark contrast to the Republicans who are currently running for president.

What you have to ask yourself is: Who amongst us has the vision for actually making the changes that are going to improve the lives of the American people? Who has the tenacity and the ability and the proven track record of getting that done?

Now, I revere my late mother, and she gave me a lot of good advice. But one of the best pieces of advice she gave me was, you know, the issue is not whether or not you get knocked down. It’s whether you get back up.

America’s been knocked down. That Great Recession, 9 million people lost their jobs, 5 million lost their homes, $13 trillion in wealth disappeared. And although we’ve made progress, we’re standing but not running the way America needs to.

My mission as president will be to raise incomes for hard-working middle-class families and to make sure that we get back to the basic bargain I was raised with: If you work hard and you do your part, you should be able to get ahead and stay ahead.

Please join me in this campaign. Please come and make it clear that America’s best days are still ahead. Thank you very much.

(APPLAUSE)

COOPER: Well, that does it for this Democratic presidential debate. On behalf of everyone at CNN, we want to thank the candidates, our debate partners at Facebook, the Wynn Resort, and the Democratic National Committee. Thanks also to Dana Bash, Juan Carlos Lopez, and Don Lemon. We’ll be back in Las Vegas December 15th, when CNN hosts our next Republican presidential debate. That will be moderated by my colleague, Wolf Blitzer.

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